Why does the Roman Catholic Church believe that the Bishop of Rome is the exclusive and rightful successor to Peter? (Torah, presbyterian)
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I appreciate your kind remarks, and the fact that you as a Catholic admit that Luther was correct about the corruption of the Catholic Church in his day. I believe the protestant denominations who have taken Luther's words literally and preach that we are saved "by grace and faith alone" are ignoring the words of Christ in John 14:[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments, and in Matt.7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
If we have not committed ourselves to DOING the will of our Father in heaven, we have no assurance that we will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Great post!!
I do not know why there is animosity among different Christian groups.
I believe the animosity of the different groups arises from each of them feeling that their group has the best and sometimes THE ONLY true doctrinal beliefs. I appears that Pope Francis and the Mormans, who each felt they were the only true church, have softened their belief in recent days, and similarly a much smaller group, the Shiloh Truelight Chuch of Christ, a non-denomnational church which split off in 1969 from the Truelight church of Christ in, a group which believed they were the only true church. Bro Rommie Purser who was Elder for over 30 years, and Bro. Mike McGee who succeeded him after Bro. Rommie's death in 2004 have been our only ministers, and both have stressed the words of our Savior in Luke 9:[49] John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. [50] And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
I personally believe that our omniscient God know the heart of everyone on the face of this earth who is like Cornelius in Acts chapter 9 who was hungering and thirsting after righteousness - FOR THEY SHALL BE FILLED [Matt. 5:6]. I believe that Jesus was saying that they SHALL be filled with the Holy Spirit [which the Apostles said in Acts 5:32 that God gives to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM] which makes it possible for us to DO THE WILL OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. Some of my favorite words in scripture are in John:9[15] And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? [16] Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. [17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
I believe that if we are truly doing the will of our heavenly Father, the Holy Spirit will help us in laying down our differences and being able to understand what Jesus meant when He said "HE SHALL KNOW OF THE DOCTRINE WHETHER IT IS OF GOD.
I believe the animosity of the different groups arises from each of them feeling that their group has the best and sometimes THE ONLY true doctrinal beliefs. I appears that Pope Francis and the Mormans, who each felt they were the only true church, have softened their belief in recent days, and similarly a much smaller group, the Shiloh Truelight Chuch of Christ, a non-denomnational church which split off in 1969 from the Truelight church of Christ in, a group which believed they were the only true church. Bro Rommie Purser who was Elder for over 30 years, and Bro. Mike McGee who succeeded him after Bro. Rommie's death in 2004 have been our only ministers, and both have stressed the words of our Savior in Luke 9:[49] John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. [50] And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
I personally believe that our omniscient God know the heart of everyone on the face of this earth who is like Cornelius in Acts chapter 9 who was hungering and thirsting after righteousness - FOR THEY SHALL BE FILLED [Matt. 5:6]. I believe that Jesus was saying that they SHALL be filled with the Holy Spirit [which the Apostles said in Acts 5:32 that God gives to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM] which makes it possible for us to DO THE WILL OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. Some of my favorite words in scripture are in John:9[15] And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? [16] Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. [17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
I believe that if we are truly doing the will of our heavenly Father, the Holy Spirit will help us in laying down our differences and being able to understand what Jesus meant when He said "HE SHALL KNOW OF THE DOCTRINE WHETHER IT IS OF GOD.
The catholic Church has been trying the unity theme for a long time, but this is not welcomed by some Protestants.
Modern catholics have little issue with Protestants; we are not in the middle ages anymore. The animosity is mostly from the other side.
The catholic Church has been trying the unity theme for a long time, but this is not welcomed by some Protestants.
Modern catholics have little issue with Protestants; we are not in the middle ages anymore. The animosity is mostly from the other side.
Julian658 -
You are probably right that Protestants are more prejudiced toward Catholocs than the other way around. Our non-denominational church is probably closer to Catholics than to Protestants which believe in the doctrine,"Once Saved Always Saved - and that you can't do anything to lose that salvation." Jesus maks it very clear in John 15:[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. . . . .[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
You are probably right that Protestants are more prejudiced toward Catholocs than the other way around. Our non-denominational church is probably closer to Catholics than to Protestants which believe in the doctrine,"Once Saved Always Saved - and that you can't do anything to lose that salvation." Jesus maks it very clear in John 15:[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. . . . .[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Good for you!
But, in the end ALL Christian religions will have differences and I do not see the point in putting others down.
I don't have any problems in admitting the bad things of the catholic Church, but what can you expect of men that were in charge of the most powerful institution in Western Civilization. More powerful than kings and queens in medieval times. Corruption was unavoidable, but at the same time there were many more GOOD men and women that tried very hard to live like Jesus did.
Most Catholics I know are very welcoming of other religions, the pendulum has swung big time towards acceptance of others. However, some others despise the concept of unity among Christians See the video
The last thing these folks want is unity among Christians because they would lose the anti-Catholic propaganda that is commonly preached on Sundays to gain converts.
You are probably right that Protestants are more prejudiced toward Catholocs than the other way around. Our non-denominational church is probably closer to Catholics than to Protestants which believe in the doctrine,"Once Saved Always Saved - and that you can't do anything to lose that salvation." Jesus maks it very clear in John 15:[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. . . . .[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Shalom Robert! Catholics have the doctrine to do works done by the Holy Spirit, that is absolutely biblical and has nothing to do with a work salvation. Faith "alone" by Luther, he added the "alone" and contradicted James, "Faith alone without works is dead". OSAS says all sins are forgiven, past, present and future, if you believe in the finished work of Christ. The bible says the believer has to overcome sin and when he fails, he has to confess his sins and God will cleans him from all unrighteousness. The way of light is Holyness, without no one will see God. Catholics confess their sins, if they are cleansed and overcome, I do not know, I am not a Catholic. But they are closer to the truth than Protestants believing in OSAS.
Shalom Robert! Catholics have the doctrine to do works done by the Holy Spirit, that is absolutely biblical and has nothing to do with a work salvation. Faith "alone" by Luther, he added the "alone" and contradicted James, "Faith alone without works is dead". OSAS says all sins are forgiven, past, present and future, if you believe in the finished work of Christ. The bible says the believer has to overcome sin and when he fails, he has to confess his sins and God will cleans him from all unrighteousness. The way of light is Holyness, without no one will see God. Catholics confess their sins, if they are cleansed and overcome, I do not know, I am not a Catholic. But they are closer to the truth than Protestants believing in OSAS.
Another excellent post. I absolutely agree with you that Catholics are closer to the doctrine of DOING God's will than Protestants who support the OSAS doctrine.
I personally believe we all should strive for unity of beliefs, in line with the words of Paul in 1 Cor. 1:[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Since Jesus said to the Apostles that, 'He who hears you hears me' I believe we are obligated to take the words of Paul as if they were commandments straight from Christ.
We should strive to emulate the church as it was on the Day of Pentecost when they were all in one place and in one accord.
I truly agree with Pope Francis that we should be unified, but I also believe that he would be wise to consider laying aside many of the traditions of Roman Catholicism which are not supported in scriptures, such as claiming that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin. The Holy Spirit gave Christ His sinless nature and Mary gave Him His human nature, so Mary was required to get her Holiness from the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, just as other humans. She was an exemplary human, but the Bible relates that Jesus had brothers and sisters, and I truly believed she was an excellent wife to Joseph. Jesus Himself was subject to both of His parents as a child, and I believe Mary was subject to her husband as a loving wife, in keeping with the scriptures. Catholics will need to lay down some of their traditions if the church is ever to become unified in accordance to the will of God.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 11-17-2014 at 10:08 AM..
Another excellent post. I absolutely agree with you that Catholic are closer to the doctrine of DOING God's will than Protestants who support the OSAS doctrine.
I personally believe we all should strive for unity of beliefs, in line with the words of Paul in 1 Cor. 1:[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Since Jesus said to the Apostles that, 'He who hears you hears me' I believe we are obligated to take the words of Paul as if they were commandments straight from Christ.
I agree!
BTW, the words in bold is one of the basis of Apostolic Succession and Sacred Oral Tradition. Besides the bible the Catholic Church puts a lot of emphasis on Apostolic Succession and Sacred Oral Tradition.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur Shalom Robert! Catholics have the doctrine to do works done by the Holy Spirit, that is absolutely biblical and has nothing to do with a work salvation. Faith "alone" by Luther, he added the "alone" and contradicted James, "Faith alone without works is dead".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince
Another excellent post. I absolutely agree with you that Catholic are closer to the doctrine of DOING God's will than Protestants who support the OSAS doctrine.
I personally believe we all should strive for unity of beliefs, in line with the words of Paul in 1 Cor. 1:[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Since Jesus said to the Apostles that, 'He who hears you hears me' I believe we are obligated to take the words of Paul as if they were commandments straight from Christ.
"Faith Without Works is Dead" is SO MANY TIMES TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT? You need to ALWAYS take the Subject and lesson of the WHOLE CHAPTER TOO.
IF WORKS could EARN us SALVATION Other verses COULD NOT.... Say it is a FREE GIFT OF GOD?? We do not get rewards for Work? We get a Wage. Therefore if a GIFT IT IS NOT EARNED AS A WAGE GAINS ONE?
ONE HAS TO SEE WHAT..." Dead" means and denotes in scripture? The Bible merely uses the word ....
"DEAD" for the opposite of Alive. Both in the Flesh of this life NOT REGERATED OR YET JUSTIFIED IN FAITH. Also Not yet in Resurrection. But there is ANOTHER... for being in a SPIRITUALLY DEAD STATE.
Some also refer to being "BORN AGAIN" or "BORN from above SPIRITUALLY" TRUE FAITH CAME AND GOD ACKNOWLEDGES it by A SPIRITUAL INDWELLING of HOLY SPIRIT.
The Bible does speak about a SPIRITALLY DEAD CHURCH. and we must presume that this dead church is full of dry bones or spiritually dead members. They might confess their sins, they might profess their faith but the question is do they possess this faith? Anyone can confess, anyone can profess, but it is an altogether different thing to possess something. In the message to the Seven Churches in the Book of Revelation, it is Jesus Himself that speaks to them. In Revelation 3:14-20 it says:
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
THEY DID WORKS TO EARN SALVATION.. Whether Ritual or some Repetition of Prayers, statements of Faith and Required Sacraments Documenting a ATTAINING TO a Declaration ON THE CHURCHES BEHALF TO GOD.... THEY EARNED BY WORKS ...to have FAITH EVALUATED AND STAMPED APPROVED?
BUT NO Church can declare a list of Works for Salvation is in the Bible for the Church.
The Catholic Church to Jehovah Witnesses have REQUIREMENTS to gain DELARATION OF FAITH BY WORKS TO ATTAIN TO SALVATION?
But if the REPENTECE ISN'T REAL AND FAITH PURE AND TRUE? NO WORKS CAN EARN SALVATION TOWARD A "SPIRITUALLY ALIVE" [not Dead] Faith.
But once REPENTECE IS TRUELY MENT,REAL and SOUGHT FROM GOD THROUGH CHRIST...THEN and ONLY THEN....ARE THE "WORKS" even COUNTED with FAITH to now be SPIRITUALLY ALIVE VS DEAD.
So WORKS YET ((("DEAD"))) WITHOUT FAITH IS....... A LIFE THAT TRUE FAITH SPIRITUALLY HAS... NOT ...YET BEEN SPIRITUALLY ACKNOWLEDGED by GOD By the HOLY SPIRIT NOW UPON THEM to a NEW SPIRITUAL BIRTH, REPENTECE REAL, BAPTISM CLAIMED and DESIRE TO DO GOOD DEEDS AS WORKS BY OUR HANDS(by hands we do works) THE MARK ON THE HAND. WITH OUR MINDS we term "HEART" (we have our mind in our foreheads) WE HAVE THE WORKS NOT COUNTED FOR ....REWARDS ....TO GAIN IN THE NEXT LIFE.
If the MARK on our hands and on (in) our foreheads is not for God? It is our works ARE YET DEAD and merely as a anti-Christ.
BTW, the words in bold is one of the basis of Apostolic Succession and Sacred Oral Tradition. Besides the bible the Catholic Church puts a lot of emphasis on Apostolic Succession and Sacred Oral Tradition.[/QUOT
Julian68 -
I always appreciate your input.
Unfortunately I personally do not consider a Pope on the same levels as an Apostle, especially when he proposes an oral tradition such as the sinlessness of Mary, which we believe is an addition to the scriptures and forbidden by Rev. 22nd chapter. I believe it is also an addition to scriptures to say that she was a perpetual virgin since scriptures clearly say that Jesus had brothers and sisters.
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