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So then if I understand this, everyone BC---Sumerian, Hindu, Buddhist, Confusian, B'ahai--had their sins imputed to Christ and therefore, since they not known about Christ since He hadn't been born or they were in different parts of the world and could not have known the Jewish promise of a savior, automatically went to heaven because their sins were covered by His sacrifice?
Everyone had their personal sins imputed to Christ. But no, they did not automatically go to heaven because they did not know about Christ. Besides, before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus heaven wasn't open to believers. Every Old Testament believer went to the Paradise side of Sheol/Hades. The gospel message has always been available to the human race. And where positive volition existed at the point of God consciousness - that point in a person's life when they are capable of understanding that a Supreme Being must exist, then God saw to it that the gospel concerning the Messiah would be available to them. God personally gave the gospel to Adam after he sinned. As the human population grew, the gospel spread. The same after the flood. An aspect of this is that Israel was to be a witness to the Gentile nations. Not by going out among the Gentile nations, but by the Gentiles coming to them and then taking word about the Messiah back to their own people. Israel of course failed in its function to be the witness it was intended to be. Also, in the course of human history, entire populations of people went negative and did not know or want to know the true God but instead preferred to worship their idols and false gods. God is not responsible for bringing the gospel concerning the Messiah to people who prefer their idols and false gods to knowing the true God. One must first believe that God exists and want to know Him before there is any point in giving him the gospel concerning Christ.
The only people who are automatically saved are those who die before reaching what is often called the age of accountability. Not a specific age, but that point, whenever it is reached, when a person is able to comprehend that some king of Supreme Being must exist. If a person dies before that point then he is automatically saved. But once he reaches that point of accountability then God holds him responsible for his volitional response. If a person is positive at the point of God consciousness then God will see that he gets the gospel so that he can either respond to it or reject it.
The planned or not planned is a red herring question. Since God definitely has a plan to bring us all to Him in agape love . . . the way we get there is part of His plan. The actual question that is constantly being bandied about is whether or not God demanded that Christ be horrendously scourged and crucified to magically pay or appease God for our human disobedience in some scapegoat fashion. That is preposterous! It was God's plan that we would be sent a messenger when we were ready to learn the truth about His love for us. God knew what we would do to any messenger bringing the truth . . . so He sent His Son to bear the savagery and brutality the message would inevitably evoke in our barbaric ancestors.
Both the Father and the Son knew what they would do . . . and they still went forward because it is part of the overall plan to bring us to a true and unambiguous understanding of God and Jesus. That understanding is true age-during life. But we perverse humans were so indoctrinated by the primitive barbarity of our ancestors' belief in a need to appease a smiting War God with blood sacrifices . . . that they interpreted Jesus enduring the brutality as a blood sacrifice to appease God . . . instead of as an unambiguous demonstration of agape love for us all. Jesus smote no one.
Did He need to die? The answer is Yes . . . because only then would His Holy Spirit become part of our collective human consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." We ALL need to die . . . and we ALL will be "born again" as Spirit as Christ was. Christ is the First-born human Spirit that connected perfectly with God's Spirit of pure agape love . . . and we are supposed to follow Him.
Everyone had their personal sins imputed to Christ. But no, they did not automatically go to heaven because they did not know about Christ. Besides, before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus heaven wasn't open to believers. Every Old Testament believer went to the Paradise side of Sheol/Hades. The gospel message has always been available to the human race. And where positive volition existed at the point of God consciousness - that point in a person's life when they are capable of understanding that a Supreme Being must exist, then God saw to it that the gospel concerning the Messiah would be available to them. God personally gave the gospel to Adam after he sinned. As the human population grew, the gospel spread. The same after the flood. An aspect of this is that Israel was to be a witness to the Gentile nations. Not by going out among the Gentile nations, but by the Gentiles coming to them and then taking word about the Messiah back to their own people. Israel of course failed in its function to be the witness it was intended to be. Also, in the course of human history, entire populations of people went negative and did not know or want to know the true God but instead preferred to worship their idols and false gods. God is not responsible for bringing the gospel concerning the Messiah to people who prefer their idols and false gods to knowing the true God. One must first believe that God exists and want to know Him before there is any point in giving him the gospel concerning Christ.
The only people who are automatically saved are those who die before reaching what is often called the age of accountability. Not a specific age, but that point, whenever it is reached, when a person is able to comprehend that some king of Supreme Being must exist. If a person dies before that point then he is automatically saved. But once he reaches that point of accountability then God holds him responsible for his volitional response. If a person is positive at the point of God consciousness then God will see that he gets the gospel so that he can either respond to it or reject it.
I have to say you've been pretty decent to me, Mike, in patiently trying to explain this to me. I have to confess I just don't grasp it. My mind just can't wrap itself around how this works, such as positive volition existing at the point of God's consciousness and how God sees to it that the gospel is made available to every person who truly seeks it. Thanks for trying, though. It was good of you.
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour, and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies.
If you love those who love you, what are you doing more than others?
Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-44, 46, 48)
When Jesus said, 'It is finished', He was saying that the penalty for our sins had been paid in full.
The contextual translation of tetelestai: It is finished, accomplished and completed, bringing it to an end; it is not an accounting term of paid in full. [It] makes absolutely no sense to take a detour from that which was accomplished, completed and finished, putting an end to sacrificing:
"For I desire mercy, not Sacrifice."
Unless of course, you would like add in a Substitution Theory.
The purpose of Christ’s death was never to appease a wrathful God.
That in and of itself is a syncretistic Christian-Pagan concept, as is your view of Hades.
Evidently, you see things with a legalistic mindset, not one where love prevails.
The contextual translation of tetelestai: It is finished, accomplished and completed, bringing it to an end; it is not an accounting term of paid in full. [It] makes absolutely no sense to take a detour from that which was accomplished, completed and finished, putting an end to sacrificing:
"For I desire mercy, not Sacrifice."
Unless of course, you would like add in a Substitution Theory.
The purpose of Christ’s death was never to appease God, that in and of itself is a syncretistic Christian-Pagan concept, as is your view of Hades.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
The planned or not planned is a red herring question. Since God definitely has a plan to bring us all to Him in agape love . . . the way we get there is part of His plan. The actual question that is constantly being bandied about is whether or not God demanded that Christ be horrendously scourged and crucified to magically pay or appease God for our human disobedience in some scapegoat fashion. That is preposterous! It was God's plan that we would be sent a messenger when we were ready to learn the truth about His love for us. God knew what we would do to any messenger bringing the truth . . . so He sent His Son to bear the savagery and brutality the message would inevitably evoke in our barbaric ancestors.
Both the Father and the Son knew what they would do . . . and they still went forward because it is part of the overall plan to bring us to a true and unambiguous understanding of God and Jesus. That understanding is true age-during life. But we perverse humans were so indoctrinated by the primitive barbarity of our ancestors' belief in a need to appease a smiting War God with blood sacrifices . . . that they interpreted Jesus enduring the brutality as a blood sacrifice to appease God . . . instead of as an unambiguous demonstration of agape love for us all. Jesus smote no one.
Did He need to die? The answer is Yes . . . because only then would His Holy Spirit become part of our collective human consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." We ALL need to die . . . and we ALL will be "born again" as Spirit as Christ was. Christ is the First-born human Spirit that connected perfectly with God's Spirit of pure agape love . . . and we are supposed to follow Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Here's the answer to the OP:
Romans 5
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
You clearly do not read the last part of this verse with understanding, Christ's death and rebirth as Spirit connected us all to God permanently. But it is His life as quickening Spirit (Comforter) that truly benefits us and guides us to the truth that sanctifies us in His love.
Everyone had their personal sins imputed to Christ. But no, they did not automatically go to heaven because they did not know about Christ. Besides, before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus heaven wasn't open to believers. Every Old Testament believer went to the Paradise side of Sheol/Hades. The gospel message has always been available to the human race. And where positive volition existed at the point of God consciousness - that point in a person's life when they are capable of understanding that a Supreme Being must exist, then God saw to it that the gospel concerning the Messiah would be available to them. God personally gave the gospel to Adam after he sinned. As the human population grew, the gospel spread. The same after the flood. An aspect of this is that Israel was to be a witness to the Gentile nations. Not by going out among the Gentile nations, but by the Gentiles coming to them and then taking word about the Messiah back to their own people. Israel of course failed in its function to be the witness it was intended to be. Also, in the course of human history, entire populations of people went negative and did not know or want to know the true God but instead preferred to worship their idols and false gods. God is not responsible for bringing the gospel concerning the Messiah to people who prefer their idols and false gods to knowing the true God. One must first believe that God exists and want to know Him before there is any point in giving him the gospel concerning Christ.
The only people who are automatically saved are those who die before reaching what is often called the age of accountability. Not a specific age, but that point, whenever it is reached, when a person is able to comprehend that some king of Supreme Being must exist. If a person dies before that point then he is automatically saved. But once he reaches that point of accountability then God holds him responsible for his volitional response. If a person is positive at the point of God consciousness then God will see that he gets the gospel so that he can either respond to it or reject it.
As I read this, I just had to address these false statements:
1) before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus heaven wasn't open to believers. ... just NOT TRUE
As one of our theologians answered the question sometime ago
During Old Testament times, did believing Jews go to heaven?
Part of his answer was:
Salvation, including heavenly citizenship, was always part of the Messianic faith. Believers of all ethnic, cultural, and linguistic groups went to heaven in Old Testament times. This included Jewish believers. The testimony of prominent Jewish believers affirm that they knew about and believed this:
David in Psalm 16:11,
Asaph in Psalm 73:23-26,
Isaiah in Isaiah 26:19,
Daniel in Daniel 12:1-3
are good examples.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) The only people who are automatically saved are those who die before reaching what is often called the age of accountability. ...That is just NOT TRUE
-------------------------------------------------------------------
3) The only people who are automatically saved are ____________ ...That is just NOT TRUE
probably the most egregious because it is the offering of an alternative gospel which God curses anybody who does preach such. he true faith being present at death: Galations 1:8-9
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we
preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other
than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
The truth is that the true faith is what God looks for:
"without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6
"faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." Romans 10:17
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,
but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
The contextual translation of tetelestai: It is finished, accomplished and completed, bringing it to an end; it is not an accounting term of paid in full. [It] makes absolutely no sense to take a detour from that which was accomplished, completed and finished, putting an end to sacrificing:
"For I desire mercy, not Sacrifice."
Unless of course, you would like add in a Substitution Theory.
The purpose of Christ’s death was never to appease a wrathful God.
That in and of itself is a syncretistic Christian-Pagan concept, as is your view of Hades.
Evidently, you see things with a legalistic mindset, not one where love prevails.
Excerpt:
Question: "What did Jesus mean when He said, 'It is finished'?"
Answer: Of the last sayings of Christ on the cross, none is more important or more poignant than, “It is finished.” Found only in the Gospel of John, the Greek word translated “it is finished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever. Not that Jesus wiped away any debt that He owed to the Father; rather, Jesus eliminated the debt owed by mankind—the debt of sin.
The word tetelestai was also written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show indicating that a bill had been paid in full. The Greek-English lexicon by Moulton and Milligan says this:
“Receipts are often introduced by the phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630). The connection between receipts and what Christ accomplished would have been quite clear to John’s Greek-speaking readership; it would be unmistakable that Jesus Christ had died to pay for their sins.
In ancient times when a promissory note was paid, the one holding the note wrote “TETELESTAI” across it. A deed to property was not in effect until it was dated and signed, and when this was accomplished, the clerk wrote “TETELESTAI” across the deed. When someone had a debt and it was paid off, the creditor would write "TETELESTAI" on the certificate of debt signifying that it was "PAID IN FULL". Several years ago, archaeologists digging in Egypt uncovered the "office" of an ancient "CPA." In this office they found a stack of bills, with the Greek word "tetelestai" inscribed across each bill - "Paid in full"! When Christ gave Himself on the Cross, He fulfilled all the righteous demands of the law and our "sin debt" was PAID IN FULL.
19:30. The sixth word or saying that Jesus spoke from the cross was the single Greek work tetelestai which means It is finished. Papyri receipts for taxes have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning ''paid in full.'' This word on Jesus' lips was significant. When He said, ''It is finished'' (not ''I am finished''), He meant His redemptive work was completed. He had been made sin for people (2 Cor. 5:21) and had suffered the penalty of God's justice which sin deserved.
[The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 340]
Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2] Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3] But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4] For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5] Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6] in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7] Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” 8] When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9] then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10] By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11] Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12] but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-07-2014 at 03:00 AM..
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What was the purpose of Christ's death?
