What was the purpose of Jesus death? (divination, believe, scripture)
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I agree with this so much. I was an atheist at one point in my life, and agnostic at one point as well. I normally do not talk about my faith/beliefs, but when I do and people ask me how I could go from being an atheist to believing in what I believe now, I tell them I really can't explain it (nor would I want to if I could). What matters to me is my relationship with God, and all I can say is that it's beautiful and I wouldn't want it any other way.
A wonderful testimony, ashleynj. You have summed up what it means to find Christ as Savior--a changed life that is unexplainable to the world about us.
I agree with this so much. I was an atheist at one point in my life, and agnostic at one point as well. I normally do not talk about my faith/beliefs, but when I do and people ask me how I could go from being an atheist to believing in what I believe now, I tell them I really can't explain it (nor would I want to if I could). What matters to me is my relationship with God, and all I can say is that it's beautiful and I wouldn't want it any other way.
I can personally believe that Jesus was a real man who existed, who came down from the Father and was sacrificed on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. That is a matter of faith without any verifiable proof. But this doesn't separate men from the Buddhists and Krishnas who profess the exact same thing as a matter of faith and not proof. They attest to the same things: that their holy scriptures speak of this god who came down as a man, performed miracles, was killed and then arose. So when I try to convince him that his faith is wrong and that mine is right how far am I going to get? About as far as he is going to get when he tries to convince me that my faith is wrong and that his is right.
That's why historicity is so important; it moves the subject matter past the faith point and into the realm of reality, which is what most rational people are looking for before they'll believe in something.
People who say, "I don't need proof, I have faith" will do just fine as long as they are among their own kind, but they will not get very far with the young kids graduating from university these days who have been trained to demand proof and logic, not blind faith.
In the future we will talk about Christianity in terms of "before computers and after computers". The internet will be recognized as the beginning of the end for Christianity. I don't applaud this as some might think I do. I recognize that Christianity needs to be radically redefined because in its present Dark Ages form with its Dark Ages belief system of eternal damnation and barbaric penal blood atonement it is dying and I wouldn't want to see that. But until church leaders start facing facts that in this technological age people are going to demand changes, Christianity will continue to die a slow death by a thousand cuts. It's happening right now as Christianity hemorrhages millions of former Christians who just don't want to be a part of the highly ritualized medieval religion that calls itself Christianity in a 21st century.
I can personally believe that Jesus was a real man who existed, who came down from the Father and was sacrificed on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. That is a matter of faith without any verifiable proof. But this doesn't separate men from the Buddhists and Krishnas who profess the exact same thing as a matter of faith and not proof. They attest to the same things: that their holy scriptures speak of this god who came down as a man, performed miracles, was killed and then arose. So when I try to convince him that his faith is wrong and that mine is right how far am I going to get? About as far as he is going to get when he tries to convince me that my faith is wrong and that his is right.
That's why historicity is so important; it moves the subject matter past the faith point and into the realm of reality, which is what most rational people are looking for before they'll believe in something.
People who say, "I don't need proof, I have faith" will do just fine as long as they are among their own kind, but they will not get very far with the young kids graduating from university these days who have been trained to demand proof and logic, not blind faith.
In the future we will talk about Christianity in terms of "before computers and after computers". The internet will be recognized as the beginning of the end for Christianity. I don't applaud this as some might think I do. I recognize that Christianity needs to be radically redefined because in its present Dark Ages form with its Dark Ages belief system of eternal damnation and barbaric penal blood atonement it is dying and I wouldn't want to see that. But until church leaders start facing facts that in this technological age people are going to demand changes, Christianity will continue to die a slow death by a thousand cuts. It's happening right now as Christianity hemorrhages millions of former Christians who just don't want to be a part of the highly ritualized medieval religion that calls itself Christianity in a 21st century.
This statement is completely off topic. Yet would you hold that Buddhism, Krishnas and Muslims will also hemorrhage millions because of the advent of computers? Within those religions there are millions who are also computer users. So your prediction should be the "death of all religion."
All I'm saying is something--the details we may not find common ground on--but something changed these men. It had to be a remarkable person who nobody wanted to forget. Historians and philosophers weren't going to mention Jesus, just another crucified messiah. But the common, dirt-poor Jews to whom He brought hope were not about to forget Him.
There is no prima facie evidence for the resurrection of any person --ever!! That's why it is something left to faith. I prefer the ridicule of non-Christians regarding my faith in His resurrection to the nonsense of Christians trying to "prove" it or the historicity of any other biblically recorded event. The religion of Jesus is based on faith, not 21st century verifiable fact.
How do I KNOW the blood of Jesus was shed for me? It is faith, but it is faith firmly nestled in my personal experience which I can in no reasonable way share with people on this thread or even in person. The way we understand Jesus is real, is by seeing a changed life of one who did not believe and then became a believer. There is no other method for detecting whether the life and death of Jesus had any meaning at all.
So we understand by faith--or don't understand at all.
This is the sad part, Warden. Jesus DID shed His blood for us . . . that is not controversial. WHY He did so is what you have misunderstood in your grief and guilt over your prayer that you think caused God to kill your SIL. You have faith NOT in God . . . but in the primitive and superstitious beliefs about God of our ignorant ancestors. You make no effort to truly understand what agape love for life MEANS and what it means to say God IS agape love. Jesus was resurrected . . . but it was in a spiritual body as a Spirit . . . as we all will be. That is how He was made available to all of us within our consciousness as the Comforter (Holy Spirit). Your angry hating God is of your own and our ignorant ancestors' imaginations.
This is the sad part, Warden. Jesus DID shed His blood for us . . . that is not controversial. WHY He did so is what you have misunderstood in your grief and guilt over your prayer that you think caused God to kill your SIL. You have faith NOT in God . . . but in the primitive and superstitious beliefs about God of our ignorant ancestors. You make no effort to truly understand what agape love for life MEANS and what it means to say God IS agape love. Jesus was resurrected . . . but it was in a spiritual body as a Spirit . . . as we all will be. That is how He was made available to all of us within our consciousness as the Comforter (Holy Spirit). Your angry hating God is of your own and our ignorant ancestors' imaginations.
I'm sorry, MysticPhD, but I believe in a literal resurrection as well. The only account we have is about a LITERAL resurrection.
Quote:
So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"…
John 20:25-28
On the Sunday that Jesus rose from the grave, he appeared to a group of his disciples. One of the disciples, whose name was Thomas, was not with them. When the disciples told Thomas that they had seen Jesus and that he was alive, Thomas said, "I won't believe it until I see it with my own eyes. I want to see the nail-prints in his hands and put my hand in the place where the spear was thrust into his side."
A week later, Jesus appeared to his disciples again. This time Thomas was there. Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Put your hand into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Then Thomas believed!
A lot of people today won't believe that Jesus really rose from the grave because they haven't seen him with their own two eyes. They want "proof of identity" before they will believe. Jesus said, "Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed."
The world says, “I would see, must see the prints of the nails, the credentials of kingship in the Christian’s life.”
We tell our neighbor we are converted and going to live the Christ life. He replies, “So glad to hear lt.” But he watches for the nail prints and will not believe until he sees them.
This is the standard of measurement in heaven and on earth – nail prints. If any man will be my disciple, let him deny himself and take up his cross.
The mark of Christianity is the cross. It is the sign of discipleship. Why does the world doubt the Church? It believes in Christ, accepts His teaching and raises the name of Jesus above every name. But far too often the world looks for nail prints on the hands of the Church and sees none.
So sorry that you are lost in your modern, psychoanalysis of God and man. He would be far more real, if you just had the faith of a little child.
This statement is completely off topic. Yet would you hold that Buddhism, Krishnas and Muslims will also hemorrhage millions because of the advent of computers? Within those religions there are millions who are also computer users. So your prediction should be the "death of all religion."
It's been predicted before--and more than once.
Okay, Warden. I can see you are deeply entrenched in your faith as nearly all fundamentalists are. I don't say that to disparage you. I think it's wonderful that a person can have so much faith on virtually no concrete historic evidence. For them the gospels' word is as good as gold.
As to the other faiths, yes they are losing membership just like the Christians. With Christianity it's only more apparent because we're here and this is a Christian country (for the time being) and we don't bother much to see what's going on with faiths on the other side of the world. But yes, Muslims are converting to Christianity, Christians are converting to Buddhism, Buddhists are turning atheist--it's a melting pot of sorts due to all the historic info that is now available on the Internet.
Lots of people who demand some sort of solid foundational basis for believing in Christianity are not finding it in the scriptures. What they are finding on the Internet are tons of debates, lectures, conversations, etc on why Christianity has been manipulated so deviously over the centuries by corrupt church leaders and why Christianity has its roots in mystery religious practices and beliefs. This is not a matter of opinion--it's there in Technicolor for all to see.
Open-minded people will weigh the pros and cons and decide to either abandon Christianity or stick with it. Fundamentalists will, by and large, deny any such proof exists or attribute such proof to the work of the devil and other medieval superstitions.
Okay, Warden. I can see you are deeply entrenched in your faith as nearly all fundamentalists are. I don't say that to disparage you. I think it's wonderful that a person can have so much faith on virtually no concrete historic evidence. For them the gospels' word is as good as gold.
As to the other faiths, yes they are losing membership just like the Christians. With Christianity it's only more apparent because we're here and this is a Christian country (for the time being) and we don't bother much to see what's going on with faiths on the other side of the world. But yes, Muslims are converting to Christianity, Christians are converting to Buddhism, Buddhists are turning atheist--it's a melting pot of sorts due to all the historic info that is now available on the Internet.
Lots of people who demand some sort of solid foundational basis for believing in Christianity are not finding it in the scriptures. What they are finding on the Internet are tons of debates, lectures, conversations, etc on why Christianity has been manipulated so deviously over the centuries by corrupt church leaders and why Christianity has its roots in mystery religious practices and beliefs. This is not a matter of opinion--it's there in Technicolor for all to see.
Open-minded people will weigh the pros and cons and decide to either abandon Christianity or stick with it. Fundamentalists will, by and large, deny any such proof exists or attribute such proof to the work of the devil and other medieval superstitions.
It is my personal experience in finding Christ that makes the scripture meaningful to me. No self-entrenched fundamentalist would ever consider me "one of their own," because I do not see the creation stories as literal and I don't believe any of the gospels were written by the men they are attributed to except perhaps Luke.
The "virgin" birth is a non-issue for me, and I do not see scripture as "inerrant" although I do believe a thread of truth is traced through ALL of it. I simply have not slipped into the deep trench of liberalism in which you find yourself. And if you do not believe in substitutionary atonement, well, then you are in the same boat with Mystic, Jerwade, Pcamps, and others. I think it is a very fine group--at least until judgment day.
And, yes, it is 100% about faith AND the works that exhibit the presence of that faith. The slightest measure of "reason" removes faith as the basis.
It is my personal experience in finding Christ that makes the scripture meaningful to me. No self-entrenched fundamentalist would ever consider me "one of their own," because I do not see the creation stories as literal and I don't believe any of the gospels were written by the men they are attributed to except perhaps Luke.
The "virgin" birth is a non-issue for me, and I do not see scripture as "inerrant" although I do believe a thread of truth is traced through ALL of it. I simply have not slipped into the deep trench of liberalism in which you find yourself. And if you do not believe in substitutionary atonement, well, then you are in the same boat with Mystic, Jerwade, Pcamps, and others. I think it is a very fine group--at least until judgment day.
And, yes, it is 100% about faith AND the works that exhibit the presence of that faith. The slightest measure of "reason" removes faith as the basis.
What was your experience before your accumulated beliefs?.
The slightest measure of "reason" removes faith as the basis.
How so, if you don't mind me asking?
"For sound judgment would be that of using common sense and reasoning, if one is prudent and faithful."
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