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IF I had to guess (and I do) . . . they will have to experience everything they have inflicted on every person they have harmed with their actions in their lives from the perspective of their victims . . . each and every one. They will definitely be changed and cleansed by "weeping and gnashing of teeth" at their evil. Then you do not know what a choice IS. Can YOU really and truly CHOOSE to believe that God does NOT exist??? Would you ACTUALLY believe it??? If it were a choice you should be able to.
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Originally Posted by janelle144
The first sounds like hell to me.
For the second----I thought choice was choosing to believe or not believe. Yes, some choose to believe there is no God. Atheists do all the time.
That was NOT my question. Can YOU choose NOT to believe in God??? Would you ACTUALLY believe it??? If you COULD choose NOT to believe in God . . . then you do NOT actually believe in God. What we truly believe is NEVER a choice.
Yes, universalists often talk about purgatory-like place where God tortures sins out of people and forces them to worship Him. Much like Catholics, they believe this place of torment can be avoided by performing works here on earth.
These kinds of deliberate misinterpretations of UR in support of heinous beliefs about Hell will not serve you well, Finn. You carry a heavier burden for the stumbling blocks you deliberately place in front of the brethren.
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Originally Posted by pcamps
I believe in Universal Reconciliation taught in the scriptures and most definitely do not believe what you are saying here.
He knows that, pcamps. He does it too often for it not to be deliberate.
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God neither tortures folk or forces them to worship, he brings all people to the knowledge of the truth, for he convinces like no other and persuades like no other and most certainly does not need the threats of that most despicable doctrine of men of eternal torment to bring man back to himself(to his senses).
Amen! It is the power of God's pure love that transforms even the worst among us. They are tormented by their own extreme remorse and guilt as they experience what they have inflicted on others. God torments no one.
These kinds of deliberate misinterpretations of UR in support of heinous beliefs about Hell will not serve you well, Finn. You carry a heavier burden for the stumbling blocks you deliberately place in front of the brethren.
He knows that, pcamps. He does it too often for it not to be deliberate. Amen! It is the power of God's pure love that transforms even the worst among us. They are tormented by their own extreme remorse and guilt as they experience what they have inflicted on others. God torments no one.
Just as Paul was tormented by the things he did in the past to the body of Christ. Paul had to come to the place in Christ were he only looked ahead and quit looking back, for looking back at our past sins only leads to torment.
These kinds of deliberate misinterpretations of UR in support of heinous beliefs about Hell will not serve you well, Finn. You carry a heavier burden for the stumbling blocks you deliberately place in front of the brethren.
He knows that, pcamps. He does it too often for it not to be deliberate. Amen! It is the power of God's pure love that transforms even the worst among us. They are tormented by their own extreme remorse and guilt as they experience what they have inflicted on others. God torments no one.
Like two other URs before, you threaten me with God's judgment, but you also proved my point while trying to deny it.
Here is what I posted to pneuma (and he skirted it).
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These threats about people having to "reap what they sow" and after-life conversion process is in line with the Catholic beliefs of purgatory, just like Janell said (she should know, as she is Catholic). Mystic pointed out "it won't be pleasant". He also pointed out it can be avoided by works during this life.
After this "unpleasant" time in that place of torment is finished, everyone will be saved (it is not choice), so everything I said is correct. Why should you be offended when your own beliefs are revealed?
Let's go over it point by point, because you may not realize how close your beliefs are to Catholic views of purgatory and works based salvation. Even Catholic recognized the parallels.
1. You believe people "reap what they sow", and you clarified this is not a pleasant experience, so you do indeed believe in purgatory-like place where people are punished by "unpleasant reaping" by God's refining fire (torment) for their sins.
2. You believe this unpleasant "reaping" occurs because of lack of good works and repentance (you said so yourself), so you do in indeed believe what I said.
3. You believe when people have gone through this unpleasant reaping (torment), they are then saved, which is in line with the Catholic belief of purgatory, refinement and after death salvation process. Since salvation is impossible without the unpleasant "reaping" (torment), it is indeed forced. If it is not a choice, then it is forced.
Everything I said was correct about universalists beliefs, and yet you are offended when it is mentioned. Why?
Read the highlighted part fin, and then find one place where any of us has said God tortures the sin out of people and forces them to worship Him.
come on put up or shut up.
I also noticed you did not respond to what the Jews understand about Gehenna, all you did was say the RCC believes in purgatory. Did it ever occur to you that they got the idea of purgatory from the Jews?
Oh ya and forced worship is actually your belief as can be seen in every knee bowing.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Like two other URs before, you threaten me with God's judgment, but you also proved my point while trying to deny it.
Here is what I posted to pneuma (and he skirted it).
Let's go over it point by point, because you may not realize how close your beliefs are to Catholic views of purgatory and works based salvation. Even Catholic recognized the parallels.
1. You believe people "reap what they sow", and you clarified this is not a pleasant experience, so you do indeed believe in purgatory-like place where people are punished by "unpleasant reaping" by God's refining fire (torment) for their sins.
2. You believe this unpleasant "reaping" occurs because of lack of good works and repentance (you said so yourself), so you do in indeed believe what I said.
3. You believe when people have gone through this unpleasant reaping (torment), they are then saved, which is in line with the Catholic belief of purgatory, refinement and after death salvation process. Since salvation is impossible without the unpleasant "reaping" (torment), it is indeed forced. If it is not a choice, then it is forced.
Everything I said was correct about universalists beliefs, and yet you are offended when it is mentioned. Why?
How did directly answering you skirt the issue fin? Here I will repost the answer.
Did it ever occur to you that they got the idea of purgatory from the Jews?
You say it is a RCC view, I ponted out to you it is a Jewish view.
And I am still waiting for you to qoute one of us saying
God tortures the sin out of people and forces them to worship Him.
All you do is add your erronous conclussions to what we believe and they we said something we did not.
So like I said either produce where one of us said
God tortures the sin out of people and forces them to worship Him.
Or shut up. In other word stop lying about what we believe.
How did directly answering you skirt the issue fin? Here I will repost the answer.
Did it ever occur to you that they got the idea of purgatory from the Jews?
You say it is a RCC view, I ponted out to you it is a Jewish view.
Where they got it is irrelevant, and I did not ask you where Catholics got the belief. So, you believe it because Jews believed it?
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And I am still waiting for you to qoute one of us
saying
God tortures the sin out of people and forces them to worship Him.
All you do is add your erronous conclussions to what we believe and they we said
something we did not.
So like I said either produce where one of us said
God tortures the sin out of people and forces them to worship Him.
Or shut up. In other word stop lying about what we believe.
You do not get to decide who is allowed to talk here. I have explained my comment twice now, and once even broke it down point by point. This is not a chat room, so I am not going to play chat games with you. If you want to avoid talking about your views, then that's fine. Don't talk about them.
These kinds of deliberate misinterpretations of UR in support of heinous beliefs about Hell will not serve you well, Finn. You carry a heavier burden for the stumbling blocks you deliberately place in front of the brethren.
He knows that, pcamps. He does it too often for it not to be deliberate. Amen! It is the power of God's pure love that transforms even the worst among us. They are tormented by their own extreme remorse and guilt as they experience what they have inflicted on others. God torments no one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Like two other URs before, you threaten me with God's judgment, but you also proved my point while trying to deny it.
You are so invested in a judgmental God that you interpret everything I say about the consequences as stemming from God's judgment. If you violate God's law of gravity and suffer the consequences . . . is it God punishing you?? Consequences for what we sow are just consequences. By placing stumbling blocks (misinterpretations of UR) in front of the brethren there will be consequences for the effect you have on them, Finn. When you are exposed to the truth of God's pure love . . . they will become obvious to you. Your regret and remorse for having impeded understanding of God's love for us all will not be a judgment from God . . . just your own reevaluation of what you have done in this life in the glare of God's pure love.
Quote:
Let's go over it point by point, because you may not realize how close your beliefs are to Catholic views of purgatory and works based salvation. Even Catholic recognized the parallels.
1. You believe people "reap what they sow", and you clarified this is not a pleasant experience, so you do indeed believe in purgatory-like place where people are punished by "unpleasant reaping" by God's refining fire (torment) for their sins.
It is NOT a punishment. It is self-inflicted remorse and regret (weeping and gnashing of teeth) over their own actions and its effects on others as they experience it from their victims' perspective.
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2. You believe this unpleasant "reaping" occurs because of lack of good works and repentance (you said so yourself), so you do in indeed believe what I said.
No. It occurs because of lack of agape love and failing to repent for it to gain the cover of Christ's love.
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3. You believe when people have gone through this unpleasant reaping (torment), they are then saved, which is in line with the Catholic belief of purgatory, refinement and after death salvation process. Since salvation is impossible without the unpleasant "reaping" (torment), it is indeed forced. If it is not a choice, then it is forced.
Wrong. We are ALL already saved by Christ and we have nothing to do with it. You seem to have a great deal of difficulty accepting that Christ did the saving . . . not us. Why do you seek credit for being saved by what you do??? None of this has anything to do with being saved. It has everything to do with reaping what we have sowed in life and did not repent for in "love of God and each other." Nothing is forced. It is the glaring TRUTH of what we have done and its impact on others that effects the change in us. We experience those effects and it transforms us in love for those we harmed. We experience tremendous and genuine remorse and regret . . . changing us into a completely loving being.
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Everything I said was correct about universalists beliefs, and yet you are offended when it is mentioned. Why?
I genuinely appreciated this attempt to explain your views point by point, Finn. Your sincerity is evident and I apologize if I have misread your intentions. I hope you see that it is the context of a vengeful punishing God that is wrong and it causes you to misread my views. We are the authors of our own misery by not trying to "love God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't.
Where they got it is irrelevant, and nor I did not ask you where Catholics got the belief. So, you believe it because Jews believed it?
You will simply never get it Fin. You simply refuse to take into account the times and beliefs and the people that were being addressed in the scriptures, all in favour of a eternal torment doctrine which I have shown in another thread to be a different gospel then the one we are commanded to teach.
How in the world one can say people must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, and then turn around and say Jesus Christ cannot or will not do that which He came to do, is not belief in Jesus Christ but rather unbelief. For you simply do not believe Jesus can or will do that which He came to do.
You are so invested in a judgmental God that you interpret everything I say about the consequences as stemming from God's judgment. If you violate God's law of gravity and suffer the consequences . . . is it God punishing you?? Consequences for what we sow are just consequences. By placing stumbling blocks (misinterpretations of UR) in front of the brethren there will be consequences for the effect you have on them, Finn. When you are exposed to the truth of God's pure love . . . they will become obvious to you. Your regret and remorse for having impeded understanding of God's love for us all will not be a judgment from God . . . just your own reevaluation of what you have done in this life in the glare of God's pure love. It is NOT a punishment. It is self-inflicted remorse and regret (weeping and gnashing of teeth) over their own actions and its effects on others as they experience it from their victims' perspective. No. It occurs because of lack of agape love and failing to repent for it to gain the cover of Christ's love.Wrong. We are ALL already saved by Christ and we have nothing to do with it. You seem to have a great deal of difficulty accepting that Christ did the saving . . . not us. Why do you seek credit for being saved by what you do??? None of this has anything to do with being saved. It has everything to do with reaping what we have sowed in life and did not repent for in "love of God and each other." Nothing is forced. It is the glaring TRUTH of what we have done and its impact on others that effects the change in us. We experience those effects and it transforms us in love for those we harmed. We experience tremendous and genuine remorse and regret . . . changing us into a completely loving being. I genuinely appreciated this attempt to explain your views point by point, Finn. Your sincerity is evident and I apologize if I have misread your intentions. I hope you see that it is the context of a vengeful punishing God that is wrong and it causes you to misread my views. We are the authors of our own misery by not trying to "love God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't.
I agree with everything you said brother, except I believe Fin deliberatly missleads others about what we believe, it happen to often and he has been corrected to often for it not to be deliberate.
Finn believes "reaping what you sow" = "God torturing people", in the case of UR that would mean "God torturing the sin out of people", in the case of ET that would mean "God putting people in a state of torture forever". And of course he carefully avoids this fate, according to his own beliefs.
Finn, your ET view poisons your own understanding of the "reaping what you sow" concept. Everyone will reap what they sow. EVERYONE. Some people call it karma. Its a law of the universe. Cause and effect.
And yes Finn is unfortunately outright lying when he says UR people believe "God tortures the sin out of people".
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You will simply never get it Fin. You simply refuse to take into account the times and beliefs and the people that were being addressed in the scriptures, all in favour of a eternal torment doctrine which I have shown in another thread to be a different gospel then the one we are commanded to teach. 
I agree with everything you said brother, except I believe Fin deliberatly missleads others about what we believe, it happen to often and he has been corrected to often for it not to be deliberate.
