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there are three direct references to Jesus "the one called Christ" as opposed to
other men named Jesus, such as those present in the Bible other than Christ, in
the histories of Josephus. Josephus was not a contemporary of Jesus. He wrote
from Rome in the 90s. There are also many other parallels between the Gospels,
the Talmuds, Roman histories, Greek Histories, and so on, all are interwoven.
The bottom line is that if you or anyone else is pre-disposed to argue that Jesus
the Christ never existed, then you choose to disregard particular
writings of this period, and the provable historical context of the first century.
That is not history, it is bias, and it is recently in vogue to think this way, sadly.
No, everything you just said is biased towards believing in the Bible as literal history. Are you aware of the fact that there are no serious Bible scholars who believe it was literal history?
so, Ozzy, are you satisfied with the answers ?
did you read them ?
or are you just going to hurry up and post another "challenging"
"gotcha" thread, as has been the trends in this forum.
We aren't allowed to proselytize in the atheist forum,
atheists shouldn't be allowed to proselytize here.
Are you suggesting that I am an "atheist" because I question the Bible and traditional Christian history?
I find it weird that Bible believing people will reject the Catholic church as heretics, yet accept everything in their tradition that supports what they happen to like.
Tim also seems to think that it's only "Jesus Mythicists" who think the 2 Josephus references are complete Christian interpolations. That is not the case at all.
Here is Peter Kirby's article on the EarlyChristianWritings website, where Tim seems to have err... 'lifted'... his information arguing for the authenticity of the 2 Josephus references, but ignores many of the best arguments against.
Read Chapter 3. Paragraph 3 (mentioning Jesus) looks completely out of place and is an obvious interpolation by some later Christian (Eusebius is a likely culprit).
It really only flows properly and makes sense if that paragraph wasn't there at all.
I agree with you on this, however, this insertion doesn't prove that He did not exist, merely that someone was unscrupulous...
there are three direct references to Jesus "the one called Christ" as opposed to
other men named Jesus, such as those present in the Bible other than Christ, in
the histories of Josephus. Josephus was not a contemporary of Jesus. He wrote
from Rome in the 90s. There are also many other parallels between the Gospels,
the Talmuds, Roman histories, Greek Histories, and so on, all are interwoven.
The bottom line is that if you or anyone else is pre-disposed to argue that Jesus
the Christ never existed, then you choose to disregard particular
writings of this period, and the provable historical context of the first century.
That is not history, it is bias, and it is recently in vogue to think this way, sadly.
All those documents that you've listed, have you actually verified them yourself or are you taking another's word for it?...
I should probably apologize for my original "point" in this thread. Which I'll admit was not very clear and was not really a point at all. So I will try to restate it here:
It's very strange the way the Christians will try to support their beliefs in claims written by men, by using other claims written by other men. So I guess this really doesn't have much to do with Josephus. But it's something a dumb 10 year old could realize. It makes Christianity look like an abnormal mental condition. And when I hear Christians making arguments like this, I am sure they are causing many religious people to have doubts about their own faith, because they begin to realize how absurd and illogical the whole idea is.
It doesn't matter which name you google - They never even existed !! want proof??
type in: Napoleon never existed
Julius Caesar never existed
George Washington never existed
If God doesn't exist then who has been answering my prayers for many decades ??? ??
That is the answer I want to hear someone try and explain.
Jesus said - these signs follow them that believe. In My name they will .. .. .. ..
The apostle Paul is an historical individual whom we can glean much information.
Only a complete fool would try and fabricate falsehoods in hopes that people would believe HIM.
THE very first name that comes to mind is Obama- Everything about his nativity story is blatantly FALSE.
How come there are no birth certificates for his two children ??? No hospital records in Hawaii or anyplace else.
You want fiction - LIsten to Obama
You want the TRUTH - ??? Get to know Jesus Christ PERSONALLY (JOHN 1:12)
notice who gives the POWER!!!
When an "author" pens a story and predicts with uncanny accuracy events that haven't happened and gets all 300 of these predictions correct - that is not coincidence - IT IS FACT!!
Dr. Ivan Panin was a very famous outspoken Agnostic - in fact he was so famous (1903) that when HE accepted Jesus Christ it made FRONT PAGE IN THE N.Y. NEWSPAPER.
It only required one verse to change this individuals mind. GENESIS 1:1
Dr. Panin issued a challenge over 100 years ago and not one person has ever been able to meet that challenge
In fact the Mathematical Department @ Harvard University couldn't even come close. They kept trying even today using very powerful computers to "make" a sentence using 7 words comprised of 28 letters and include over 30 instances of 7 in that one short verse.
MAN FAILS @ EVERY ATTEMPT!
The Hebrew Language of the bible consists of 4,500 different words.
The English language has over 400,000 words - still today; scientists and mathematicians cannot duplicate the 30 & more instances of 7's inside that one simple verse.
7 is God's number (only). He uses it on every single page of the entire bible.
Josephus is held in very high regard in today's culture - He is historically accurate and took the time to paraphrase the entire Old Testament.
He was known for HIS LOVE "to tell the truth".
All I see & witness on this forum is "human reasoning" apart from the Holy Written Scriptures.
Come let us reason - TOGETHER - saith the Lord!
Do you want proof??? Then ask God to come into your life & mean it.
Don't give me that lame excuse - I asked God to kill me and it didn't happen so therefore He doesn't exist - you were just too deaf & blind to HEAR HIM SAY .. .. ..NO!!
Wake up before it is too late!!!
It is just so simple - ALL you have to do is.........................ask (Matthew 7:7 a,b,c)
I should probably apologize for my original "point" in this thread. Which I'll admit was not very clear and was not really a point at all. So I will try to restate it here:
It's very strange the way the Christians will try to support their beliefs in claims written by men, by using other claims written by other men. So I guess this really doesn't have much to do with Josephus. But it's something a dumb 10 year old could realize. It makes Christianity look like an abnormal mental condition. And when I hear Christians making arguments like this, I am sure they are causing many religious people to have doubts about their own faith, because they begin to realize how absurd and illogical the whole idea is.
Not sure what you mean by supporting their beliefs in claims written by men, by using other claims written by men? So you are saying that anything written by men can't be trusted?
Not sure what you mean by supporting their beliefs in claims written by men, by using other claims written by men? So you are saying that anything written by men can't be trusted?
No, it's very simple. It's like saying, "What Joe said must be true. Why? Because Bill said it was true."
Book A must be true because Book B says that Book A is true.
Don't you see how that kind of cyclical reasoning doesn't make sense?
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