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They shouldn't have a ban on school prayer anyway. That's unconstitutional.
They should have a ban on forced school prayer. If the atheists want to not pray, they should not be required to. Just as someone not going to a banquet is not forced to, but you don't outright cancel the feast.
Well, this is kind of ridiculous. Because even if participation in the prayer is voluntary, you cannot turn off hearing.
Here's the thing. The school prayer people are always quick to pull the trigger on this, but never really think it through. Hey, there's no doubt that the world would be a better place if we walked in love with Christ. At the same time, this is an effort that actually is counterproductive to extending Christ's reach in the world. So let's see all the people who might be affronted by what is essentially little more than public piety.
1) There are those who don't believe at all. All you're doing is cementing their notion that Christians will ramrod their faith down everyone's throat given the chance. Congratulations. You've actually made them less receptive to a relationship with Christ, not more.
2) There are those who aren't Christians. Unless you completely bleed all meaning from a prayer, it is the automatic preferment of one religious tradition over another. The same argument holds true here.
3) There are those Christians who, citing Matthew 6, see public prayer of any description as counter to Christ's teaching. After all, it is the Sermon on the Mount, the ethical core of the faith. The fact that the school prayer takes it so lightly is a bit of a head scratcher.
4) There are those Christians who take exception to the content of the prayer. I've found that people don't want prayers in school. They want their prayers said in school. Big difference. Let's turn the tables, my fundamentalist brethren. What if the selfsame school prayer contained references to the Virgin Mary or implied Catholic theology?
I mean, who writes the prayer? What theological concepts are expressed? What committee writes the prayer? What if the language is too casual for your liking? Or too formal? The list of questions goes on and on, making the actual implementation of school prayer incredibly complex and making no one happy with the final result.
I personally have zero problem with a devotion before or after school. But blasting it over the intercom or blurting it out in a mandatory assembly? No. By doing so, you are not living Christ's commandment to us and actually undermining His mission in the process.
Jesus and the apostles prayed in public, so maybe there is something missing from your understanding of the above verse about Him saying "don't be like the hypocrites".
You are incorrect.
Mark 6:46: "And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray."
Matthew 14:23: "And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone." (KJV)
Luke 9:18: "And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him..."
John 6:15: "...he departed again into a mountain himself alone."
Jesus taught in public. Jesus gave thanks to God in public. But his wording is pretty explicit. He doesn't define what situations are okay for public prayer.
The key phrase is what comes next: "When you pray, go into your room and close the door." I mean, how can you possibly misunderstand that? As Christ clearly states, God already knows what you're praying for before you even say the words, so there isn't a need to do so on a street corner.
But even without all that, you actually just made my point for me. For you are justifying a denominational specific approach to prayer and inflicting it on everyone else within earshot, despite others (Christians included) having a different view.
Mark 6:46: "And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray."
Matthew 14:23: "And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone." (KJV)
Luke 9:18: "And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him..."
John 6:15: "...he departed again into a mountain himself alone."
Jesus taught in public. Jesus gave thanks to God in public. But his wording is pretty explicit. He doesn't define what situations are okay for public prayer.
The key phrase is what comes next: "When you pray, go into your room and close the door." I mean, how can you possibly misunderstand that? As Christ clearly states, God already knows what you're praying for before you even say the words, so there isn't a need to do so on a street corner.
Giving thanks is a prayer. Sometimes they prayed in private and sometimes in public. He is saying "when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites". It means you should not do it for the show. It does not say people must always pray alone in a closed room. Jesus prayed in front of 5000 people when He blessed the loaves of bread. He even prayed on the cross. He prayed after bring Lazarus back from the dead. He put His hands on kids and prayed in public. He actually said the temple, which is a public place, is a house of prayer. The apostles prayed and laid hands on people in public. Are you saying people should not pray in church? How do you think He taught his disciples to pray if you think He always prayed alone? Was He alone in John 17? No.
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But even without all that, you actually just made my point for me. For you are justifying a denominational specific approach to prayer and inflicting it on everyone else within earshot, despite others (Christians included) having a different view
No. The students and the audience joined hands and prayed together. They did it voluntarily and did not ask which denomination the others belonged to. I am sorry you have a problem with their prayer, but it was clearly a God honoring prayer and not done for the show.
Giving thanks is a prayer. Sometimes they prayed in private and sometimes in public. He is saying "when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites". It means you should not do it for the show. It does not say people must always pray alone in a closed room. Jesus prayed in front of 5000 people when He blessed the loaves of bread. He even prayed on the cross. He prayed after bring Lazarus back from the dead. He put His hands on kids and prayed in public. He actually said the temple, which is a public place, is a house of prayer. The apostles prayed and laid hands on people in public. Are you saying people should not pray in church? How do you think He taught his disciples to pray if you think He always prayed alone? Was He alone in John 17? No.
Sorry, but you're just filling in the blanks on the passage from John. How do you know that Jesus made those prayers in a group? It doesn't say where he made that prayer, an important point given Christ's propensity elsewhere in scripture to go off and pray alone.
Meanwhile, in Matthew 6, where does he make an exception? Does he say, "Those people can't pray in public, but you can"? No. He says directly to those listening, "When you pray...." What's more, when you read that entire section of the Sermon on the Mount, you realize that he's instructing his followers how to conduct themselves, right? In addition to rules on praying, He has rules on fasting. He has rules on giving alms, too.
In each of these instances of Christian devotion, he counsels those listening to be quiet about giving and fasting and praying. I just cannot imagine the contortions you're having to go through to state that Christ really meant the opposite of what he said.
Here's the thing. No one said that spreading Christ's word was easy. But strong-arming the local school is taking a shortcut that runs counter to Christ's teaching. And, in your zeal, creates more people who are opposed to the word of God than are receptive to it.
What's more, you make the monumental fallacy of saying I oppose prayer. Far from it. But Christ says pretty clearly that prayer is a private matter between you and God, not something for public consumption.
Sorry, but you're just filling in the blanks on the passage from John. How do you know that Jesus made those prayers in a group? It doesn't say where he made that prayer, an important point given Christ's propensity elsewhere in scripture to go off and pray alone.
How do you think John was able to record the prayer if he wasn't there? I gave you many examples where Jesus Himself prayed in public, so clearly you have misunderstood the "don't be like the hypocrites" verse. The whole point is to now make a show of your faith (giving, praying etc).
Having said that, if you are not comfortable praying with other people, then don't do it. It is as simple as that. Follow your own belief and pray in the closet.
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Christ says pretty clearly that prayer is a private matter between you and God, not something for public consumption
He said the temple, which is a public place, is a house of prayer, not to mention the fact that He prayed in public on many occasions, but then again, I already gave you some examples.
So if a cheerleader began reciting a Salat (Muslim prayer) before the game and some others joined in, you would have no problem with that? Just another Muslim pushing back on the rules... that's fair isn't it?
If we get a majority of Muslims in this country, sure that will happen.
If we get a majority of Muslims in this country, sure that will happen.
So you agree then that it is fair for them to offer a Salat at a football game, even if it offends the Christians. Nice to know.
Considering that Christians are the overwhelming majority in the U.S. it will be a very, very long time before the Muslim's are in a majority position.
I just love the persecution complex right-wing, fundie, whackjob Christians have against those who are more open and accepting of all persons, can't have acceptance now, can we.
I Love this story! What a testament! Hats off to you and that's what I'm talking about! You go girls!
A couple of weeks ago an NFL player named Husain Abdullah (he's a very religious Muslim) scored a touchdown, then knelt in the end zone and thanked Allah.
Does he get an "attaboy" for being open about his faith... or do you reserve your praise for Christians?
"You go girls!" for..... praying? Really? How about "You go girls!" when they do what Jesus said to do.... you remember..... feed the hungry, visit the lonely, help the sick. Praying out loud is a testament? Really? Jeepers, I prayed out loud when some guy went through a red light and pulled a U in front of me last week. It's not that difficult.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 10-20-2014 at 03:59 PM..
Praying out loud is a testament? Really? Jeepers, I prayed out loud when some guy went through a red light and pulled a U in front of me last week. It's not that difficult.
If that was a prayer, why were you holding your hand like that?
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