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It seems to me that the resurrection probably was the first fruits (plural), after Jesus’ first fruit (singular) - as being the physical manifestation of something great that had occurred in the spiritual realm. The penetrating reality is that ‘resurrection’ of the sort that happened in the scripture referred, is something that is ‘done’ to us – not something we have the power to choose when, how, orto what manner of reality we are resurrected to – it’s totally in God’s hands. If we die and sleep for millennia, we won’t know a thing and how long we’ve been out of it for – it’ll be “the next thing I knew…”. If we die and are instantly in another world, or slowly moving ‘toward the light’, or anything else, that is also all God’s doing. If we die and never wake up, we won’t know a thing of it. It’s interesting how dying people appear not to have the same existential anxiety that the living, onlookers, have about the same. The graph/chart of anxiety about death is probably tailing off with contradictory hard-core acceptance as one is (hopefully unconsciously) ebbing away – there’s not a lot exactly that one can do about it; that ‘choosing to live’. Waking up, at all, to anything, has to be a nice surprise, with that “I’m not dead, after all” feeling.
What I find interesting from NDE accounts, is that whatever young age people die at, even little children and unborn babies are observed to have been cared for and ‘grow up’ on the other side (reference: Heaven is for real). The lack of maturity, responsibility or person-hood is totally and perfectly accounted for and the nurturing process has been, or on an ongoing basis, is being performed. I think that is beautiful.
Paul says we can strife for a better resurrection, which is the First Resurrection, that is our choice in this life. There is another resurrection of the just and the unjust, the second resurrection. They are judged according their works. Joh 5:29 "And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Some translations say "judgement", but that is the same, the evil doers are judged according divine law, not human. A sin to death without repentance will result in eternal damnation, that is absence from the presence of God for eternity, what the second death is. Therefore we should stay away from evil, which is transgressing God's divine law. They overcame by the testimony and the blood of the lamb.
I do not need Greek to understand Matt 27. I need Greek to twist scipture and get my biased faith proofed and that works fine if the scripture is not clear as it is here.
This explains a lot. You do not cares what God said, which he had recorded in Greek not English. Obviously God does not know enough about Grammar to get the syntax correct in this verse so it would actually say what you want it to say. You believe what you have been told, even though it ignores the langauge God had the verse written in. OK, you follow men.
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What does scripture say? There was an earthquake, it does not say when. In that moment is a wrong translation.
Wait you said it does not matter what the Greek says, so how do you get a wrong "translation" now being important???? To help you see what is true.
Matthew 27:51-52 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 Andthe graves were opened; andmany bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Ok, all those "ands" are in the Greek text becasue God inspired Matthew to show they all occurred at the ..... same time. One sentence.
It actually does say when, it occurred at:
53 Andcame out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
OK, two more "ands" and then WHEN it happened.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Yep while Jesus was still nailed up they say ...."those things". All the things covered by the "ands"
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By the way the compete s Then it says that the saints in the sheol awake and their dead bodies come out of the grave and enter Jerusalem and are seen by many. Without any Greek I understand that dead bodies cannot come out of the grave, walk (enter) into Jerusalem and are seen by many. This needs a resurrection and the time is also given, after Christ's resurrection. I believe that they belong to the First Fruits of 1. Cor 15:23, and went with Christ into Heaven (Eph4:8--10; Heb 2:14-15). If somebody believes they are resurrected as Lazarus was, it makes no sense to me, because this kind of resurrection is through prayer and never accurs of a company of people, but only to individuals.
Aah, but you do need Greek to understand this.
It says the bodies were seen by many, not resurrected living beings, just their bodies. It could not be resurrected ones as the resurrection could not occur until after Jesus resurrection AND assention to heaven, which was weeks later. You agree it can't be like Lazarus and the "spiritual" resurrection you speak of was a future event according to scripture.
See how many contradictions you have even in English? I can see the reality with or without Greek, because the totality of what is said makes it impossible for it to be a resurrection from the dead to spiritual life.
Paul says we can strife for a better resurrection, which is the First Resurrection, that is our choice in this life. There is another resurrection of the just and the unjust, the second resurrection. They are judged according their works. Joh 5:29 "And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Some translations say "judgement", but that is the same, the evil doers are judged according divine law, not human. A sin to death without repentance will result in eternal damnation, that is absence from the presence of God for eternity, what the second death is. Therefore we should stay away from evil, which is transgressing God's divine law. They overcame by the testimony and the blood of the lamb.
Being a universalist, I believe the second death, in the lake of fire is the purging and purifying of those who either aren't in Christ before they die or those judged as righteous by their works (which also implies beliefs). God has restorative processes for all his creation - he doesn't throw anything away. If its 'worthless', or 'damned', that is the same value relationship as the devils status and evil works in comparison to Gods omnipotence and righteousness. Language has to be subordinate to the greater spiritual truth, and not the other way round.
This explains a lot. You do not cares what God said, which he had recorded in Greek not English. Obviously God does not know enough about Grammar to get the syntax correct in this verse so it would actually say what you want it to say. You believe what you have been told, even though it ignores the langauge God had the verse written in. OK, you follow men.
Wait you said it does not matter what the Greek says, so how do you get a wrong "translation" now being important???? To help you see what is true.
Matthew 27:51-52 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 Andthe graves were opened; andmany bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Ok, all those "ands" are in the Greek text becasue God inspired Matthew to show they all occurred at the ..... same time. One sentence.
It actually does say when, it occurred at:
53 Andcame out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
OK, two more "ands" and then WHEN it happened.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Yep while Jesus was still nailed up they say ...."those things". All the things covered by the "ands"
Aah, but you do need Greek to understand this.
It says the bodies were seen by many, not resurrected living beings, just their bodies. It could not be resurrected ones as the resurrection could not occur until after Jesus resurrection AND assention to heaven, which was weeks later. You agree it can't be like Lazarus and the "spiritual" resurrection you speak of was a future event according to scripture.
See how many contradictions you have even in English? I can see the reality with or without Greek, because the totality of what is said makes it impossible for it to be a resurrection from the dead to spiritual life.
I do not argue with you about words. When you believe that the dead bodies were thrown into the city like rockets, then your Greek must say that, but I am sure it means entered or went. But you can believe what you want, you are free, I am not pushing anything on your head, but you should stop personal attacks, I know were it comes from.
Being a universalist, I believe the second death, in the lake of fire is the purging and purifying of those who either aren't in Christ before they die or those judged as righteous by their works (which also implies beliefs). God has restorative processes for all his creation - he doesn't throw anything away. If its 'worthless', or 'damned', that is the same value relationship as the devils status and evil works in comparison to Gods omnipotence and righteousness. Language has to be subordinate to the greater spiritual truth, and not the other way round.
Great words of philosophy. If you have the greater spiritual truth, I am the last who wants to turn you around. If you have more peace with what you believe, I do not want to trouble you. God bless!
Great words of philosophy. If you have the greater spiritual truth, I am the last who wants to turn you around. If you have more peace with what you believe, I do not want to trouble you. God bless!
Thank you. I've erred on the side of caution, previously, to achieve peace. By which i mean, accepting the doctrines of eternal torment and man's choice, as coigned and given by those in 'authority'. But then, being exposed to controlling issues through a spirit of rejection, I realised that there is a spirit of fear (of death) behind those doctrines, and hence less peace. Compliance with doctrines of fear to achieve peace is illogical, spiritually.
He is a refiners fire. If it appears that He destroys by fire at our 1st physical death, it bears small relation to His higher volition, at the second death. Believing the best about God is a journey everyone must make. And if He is less than perfectly good, then He asks us to reason that out with Him.
I’ve looked enough people in the eye whilst telling them about Jesus, and witnessed the same response every time - Not even the slightest external acknowledgement that what I was saying had any inner witness or recognition to previous thoughts or feelings they’d had. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve never had those thoughts, - it may just be so deep and personal, that they don’t want to go there, or they are gracious enough not to rise to the bait if they think one is an idiot. However, that means they can never be saved, according to classic doctrine, if there is no confession, …not even a discussion. I mean, one can normally raise a response about many things common to a person’s life experience; from the price of ice cream, to how to raise children; (i.e. the sublime to the ridiculous), but about ultimate meaning and purpose, absolutely zilch!?? … pondering on that was one of the processes I went through on re-thinking how God does reveal Himself to people. If the god of this world has blinded men’s hearts, then who’s fault is that?, and who’s problem is it? Certainly not man’s – but they are definitely expected to pay the price for it, oh yes, bring on eternal torment, stage left. How can spiritually dead people be expected to discern and accept God’s salvation? It’s nonsense. So, the compassion that comes from realising their plight, is a greater blessing on them, than just telling them over and again the same words that mean nothing. And with that compassion comes a greater level of the kingdom. God uses that compassion and understanding to minister in a more powerful way than mere words. Thank God; eternal torment is slowly becoming the church’s worst kept secret, and that God has other secrets, yet up His sleeve, even for the vast majority of the hierarchical church institution, never mind the ecclesia or the whole of creation.
Thank you. I've erred on the side of caution, previously, to achieve peace. By which i mean, accepting the doctrines of eternal torment and man's choice, as coigned and given by those in 'authority'. But then, being exposed to controlling issues through a spirit of rejection, I realised that there is a spirit of fear (of death) behind those doctrines, and hence less peace. Compliance with doctrines of fear to achieve peace is illogical, spiritually.
He is a refiners fire. If it appears that He destroys by fire at our 1st physical death, it bears small relation to His higher volition, at the second death. Believing the best about God is a journey everyone must make. And if He is less than perfectly good, then He asks us to reason that out with Him.
Tell me I'm deluded, if you believe I am.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements, and His ways past finding out! (Rom11:33). We should not be His counsellor (God has to be like we believe). If His ways are higher than ours and we do not understand them anyway, so let God be God. I believe what the bible or God has revealed to me. In the walk of faith we first have to seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. If we have found it we have peace, joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit. I have never thought about ET, not even about hell, inspite I went there and expirienced some of its terror. That changed when I came to CD. I trust in the Lord and His mercy and grace, I know I cannot save myself, it is a work of God, He is the author and finisher of our faith. He tells me to have peace with every one and love is more important than doctrine. Therefore I avoid to argue, but I am flesh, and sometimes I forget. There is a spirit of strife that loves to do that and pride that will feed it. We have to walk in the light and in love. But most Christians do not do it and because they do not repent, they have both, spiritual light and spiritual darkness in them. Full of the light of God and shining are very few. We have to seek God, there is more for every one. But we can only receive it from Heaven, the Father of light. Trust and obey there is no other way to be happy in Jesus. Do good and avoid evil. A good relationship with Jesus Christ is more important than any religion with their doctrines.
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