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We discussed this in your post #242 and my response in post #247.
I reject the implications of the very question you ask. It is loaded with presuppositions and assumptions, most of which I reject, as well as an erroneous linkage.
Yes.
Yes you have forgiveness? Not according to the Bible (if that is your only source, which ranks lower than the BOM)
Then you do reject the truth. For your answers are loaded with (as you say) 'presuppositions and assumptions' which Heavenly Father rejects.
You really need to start taking Heavenly Father seriously. Did not JSmith also write it in the present tense, Be perfect?
By the way as one other person noted, we're not all naive cave dwellers and you're the enlightened one.
That is very true, Urbanlemur, that Mormons consider the bible for what it is vs the BOM, Pearls ect.
Yes you have forgiveness? Not according to the Bible (if that is your only source, which ranks lower than the BOM).
Hogwash...
Fortunately, God doesn't judge me based on your private interpretations of the Bible.
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Then you do reject the truth.
Ridiculous. I am simply rejecting certain Protestant interpretations of certain Bible verses.
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For your answers are loaded with (as you say) 'presuppositions and assumptions' which Heavenly Father rejects.
Irrational drivel...
Of COURSE statements about theology are "loaded." The difference is that you asked a QUESTION. When responding to questions the first thing that has to be considered is whether ANY answer can be given to the question as it is formed without the responder tacitly agreeing with the hidden presuppositions.
In this case you asked a question that was loaded with certain Protestant theology and was clearly being asked to "set up" the responder to be smacked with tiresome Protestant arguments.
I am happy to respond to your questions to pass on information or to explain my beliefs and feelings. I'm not in the least interested in falling into the little rhetorical traps that you set up for me.
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You really need to start taking Heavenly Father seriously.
I take Heavenly Father VERY seriously, thank you very much.
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Did not JSmith also write it in the present tense, Be perfect?
Of course. But I reject your Protestant interpretation of that phrase.
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By the way as one other person noted, we're not all naive cave dwellers and you're the enlightened one.
I have NEVER suggested that. I have great respect for the intelligence and spirituality of devoted people of all faith traditions. However, when it comes to silly anti-Mormon tactics and false interpretations of my faith, I consider myself to be the most enlightened one around. Similarly, I can't imagine anyone on this board knows more about your personal faith than you do yourself.
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That is very true, Urbanlemur, that Mormons consider the bible for what it is vs the BOM, Pearls ect.
Another piece of silliness. You REALLY need to cut back on your anti-Mormon intake. If you want to find out what LDS Christians believe, go to them directly and make sure you understand not just what words were said, but also what those words mean to them. Similarly, no one should necessarily trust an atheist or Muslim's description of Evangelicalism no matter how many Bible quotes are included.
Joseph Smith said, "If the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, then it is to be accepted with equal authority, yea with greater authority, since it purports to be not only the Word of God, but translated into English by the power of God" (A Compendium of the Doctrines of the Gospel, p. 273).
Orson Pratt, a prominent early Mormon leader, stated, "All therefore is uncertainty as to the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts of the Old Testament. They can be proved to be changed, added unto and corrupted in almost every text. Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original."
Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt probably never would have believed that statements like these would produce such a negative reaction then as they do now in our lifetime. However Paul, I have read that the church now does regard the Bible and the BOM as equal in importance and I remember that lesson plans included roughly a year or two through each one. Do they still do that?
Joseph Smith said, "If the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, then it is to be accepted with equal authority, yea with greater authority, since it purports to be not only the Word of God, but translated into English by the power of God" (A Compendium of the Doctrines of the Gospel, p. 273).
Orson Pratt, a prominent early Mormon leader, stated, "All therefore is uncertainty as to the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts of the Old Testament. They can be proved to be changed, added unto and corrupted in almost every text. Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original."
More quote mining...
As I'm sure that you know through your exhaustive study of LDS Church history (and not just cutting and pasting from anti-Mormon websites ), that both Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt used the Bible to practically an exclusive degree when explaining and teaching doctrine, right? You DO know, don't you, that Orson Pratt claimed to have memorized the Bible so that "when any one quoted one verse, I could quote the next," right? You know that he did this in German as well, right? And Hebrew?
Neither of these quotes gets you what you want when taken in their historical context or immediate contexts. On top of that, it has never been the teaching of the Church that any book in the canon is more canonical or authoritative than any another. We DO believe that the Book of Mormon was translated into English by the "gift and power of God" and that there were no textual changes or corruptions between the autographs and the 1829 translation into English.
Now, can you show me where the LDS Church has appealed to a corrupted Bible in order to ignore one of its verses?
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Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt probably never would have believed that statements like these would produce such a negative reaction then as they do now in our lifetime.
Not only that, but neither one would probably have believed that their view of the authority of the Bible would be misinterpreted the way that their enemies today do.
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However Paul, I have read that the church now does regard the Bible and the BOM as equal in importance and I remember that lesson plans included roughly a year or two through each one. Do they still do that?
Yes, the Church continues as it has from the beginning to regard both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as equally authoritative parts of the canon.
For several decades the Church has used a 4-year rotation schedule for lessons and scripture study. Year one is Old Testament. Year two is New Testament. Year three is the Book of Mormon. Year four is the Doctrine and Covenants. So for decades the Church's official schedule of scripture reading and study has given the Bible twice the emphasis of that given to the Book of Mormon. Of course, for several generations before that the Book of Mormon had been much less frequently used in the Church and practically ignored by LDS scholars.
If you want to find out what LDS Christians believe, go to them directly and make sure you understand not just what words were said, but also what those words mean to them.
Now thats novel...
Ensign May 1989 p 20: “Elder Joseph Fielding Smith offers this counsel: ‘Salvation does not come all at once, we are commanded to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.It will take us ages to accomplish this end, for there will be greater progress beyond the grave.’”
You're commanded to be perfect....that's not my interpetation.
The Mormon way takes ages to accomplish salvation. Jesus offers believers salvation and perfection now....
And it's too bad people still don't follow that simple idea. The perfect example of telling us what we think is your quote mining that immediately followed your remark.
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Ensign May 1989 p 20: “Elder Joseph Fielding Smith offers this counsel: ‘Salvation does not come all at once, we are commanded to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.It will take us ages to accomplish this end, for there will be greater progress beyond the grave.’â€
You're commanded to be perfect....that's not my interpetation.
Of course it is your interpretation!
It comes from doing exactly as you just did. You engage in equivocation regarding what it means to be "perfect." It should be clear to even the most casual reader of this quote that JFS is talking about something quite different than you are when he uses the word "perfect." He is clearly talking about types of changes that include those that occur in heaven compared to how we are in mortality.
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The Mormon way takes ages to accomplish salvation.
Jesus offers believers salvation and perfection now....
You're working at it, I already posses it.
And here we have the classic anti-Mormon bad reasoning and false comparison...
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That is why you're Mormon and I'm a Christian.
...and the inevitable ridiculous and false conclusion.
As if one's exegesis of that particular Bible passage, or any other, had anything at all to do with who is and isn't a Christian...
Why is the book of mormon rife with eccentric irregularities and bold departures from the "well of English undefiled"?
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“thou remembereth” (page 27); "and I have not written but a small part of the things I saw" (page 35); "therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they had ought" (ibid.);…"and this he done" (page 225); "and the words of Amulek which was declared unto the people" (page 245); "now the object of these lawyers were to get gain" (page 251);
…
Why is this 19th century text [translated] written poorly in ambiguous and shady 17th century English? [Could it be a bold yet translucent attempt at the mountebank of an author to appeal to the unknown in terms of the impression of ancient text by his would-be followers? Yes? Spot on right?] How can any critically thinking human not see through this veil of hog****?
Ways to Prove Mormonism Wrong 1. Bible's One God vs. Mormon Polytheism 2. The fraud of the Book of Abraham (See Proverbs 14:5) 3. Joseph's Smith famous boast 4. Brigham Young and the worship of Adam 5. Brigham Young and 10 ft tall men on the moon. 6. New World Archaeology: Zarahemla will never be found. 7. False prophecies in Doctrines and Covenants 8. Joseph Smith III prophecy 9. The Bible's salvation by grace through faith 10. 1,000's of changes in Mormon scripture: Why? 11. Changes in Mormon doctrine: Adam, polygamy, blacks, 12. Complete testimony of the three and eight witnesses
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe your Church is wrong, your Christian creeds are abomination to God, and you pastor or Priest is a hireling of Satan.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that there is salvation only in their church&emdash;all others are wrong.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that those who have been through their temples are wearing secret underwear to protect themselves from "evil". This "evil" includes non- Mormons like you.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU about their secret temple rites at all. If they did, you would spot them as non-Christians immediately.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they think "familiar spirits" are good, and that their Book of Mormon has a "familiar spirit".
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that women receive salvation only through their Mormon husbands, and must remain pregnant for all eternity.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they intend to be gods themselves some day, and are helping to earn their exaltation to godhood by talking to you.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be "Heavenly Father" over their own planet!
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that you were once a spirit-child of their heavenly father, and one of his numerous wives before you were born on earth.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the Virgin Mary really wasn't a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the "heavenly father" they ask you to pray to with them, is really an exalted man that lives on a planet near the star base Kolob, and is not the Heavenly Father of the Bible at all.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that Jesus was really Lucifer's brother in the spirit world, and it was only due to a "heavenly council" vote that Jesus became our redeemer instead of Satan!!
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism. They conveniently "forget" this while criticizing the many denominations within the body of Christ
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official "Mormon Doctrine" statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it!
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that the state of Utah, which is predominately Mormon, has a higher than the national average of wife-beating, child abuse, and teenage suicide.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their prophet Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the occult when he founded Mormonism.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that that they encourage visitations from dead relatives from the "spirit world", a practice forbidden in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 18:10- 12.)
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that there are many accounts of Joseph Smith's first vision besides he one they present to you, and all are different
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their secret temple oaths are based on the Scottish Rite Masons.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that for years they considered the Negro race inferior, and even one drop of Negro blood prevented a person from entering their temple.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they expect Christ to return to their temple in Missouri, but they haven't built the temple He's supposed to return to, because they don't own the property. (It is owned by the "Temple Lot Mormons" who have plans o of their own, and won't let the Salt Lake City group buy it).
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they consider the Bible to be untrustworthy and full of errors.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that Jesus' death on the cross only partially saves the believer.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that that according to Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible, the demon god of the living dead is called "Mormo". Is it just a coincidence that the Mormons are so concerned with the dead?
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that on their Salt Lake City Temple they prominently display an upside-down star which is a Satanic symbol known as the Goat's head.. Why?
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe the Archangel Michael came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and became Adam in the garden of Eden.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that that they believe the angel Gabriel came down to earth and became Noah in the days of the flood.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied falsely many times. For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts a prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr as they claim, but was killed during a gun battle in which he himself killed two men and wounded a third.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in which they brutally murdered an innocent wagon train of settlers, of over one hundred men, women, and most of the children, traveling through Utah.
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that Joseph Smith taught that there were inhabitants on the moon, and Brigham Young taught there were inhabitants on the sun as well!
Mormons make up 2 percent of the American population, and their faith, which emerged 177 years ago in upstate New York, is a relative newcomer.
Why is it not clear that a deluded snake oil huckster from New York In 1835, Joseph Smith, founder of the original Mormon church -- the Church of Christ -- purchased several Egyptian papyrus scrolls and fragments from the owner of a traveling road show which exhibited Egyptian mummies and documents. After translating them, he stated that they were a copy of a book by the biblical patriarch Abraham.
claimed that he received divine inspiration, not in writing a new book of scripture, but instead in having discovered and translated an existing ancient work." 2 He would have had to have been divinely inspired, because only a few academics could read some ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic text at that time. Translation only became possible following the discovery of the Rosetta Stone in 1799-JUL, in Rosetta, Egypt (near Alexandria). The stone included a decree that was translated into three languages: Ancient Greek, Egyptian hieroglyphics, and Demotic (a later Egyptian script). The Greek writings could be translated by Egyptologists. Over time, this led to the deciphering of the other two. By 1822, Jean Francois Champollion (1790-1832), the "Father of the Decipherment of Hieroglyphs," 3 was able to identify the names of a few pharaohs on some monuments. 4 The ability to translate hieroglyphics symbol-by-symbol came later -- long after Smith claimed that he translated the Book of Abraham.
In 1912, the Rt. Reverend Franklin S. Spalding, Episcopal Bishop of Utah, sent copies of the three facsimiles from the Book to world-class Egyptologists and Semitists. Eight responded with uniformly negative appraisals:
the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City: "Joseph Smith's interpretation of these cuts is a farrago of nonsense from beginning to end...five minutes study in an Egyptian gallery of any museum should be enough to convince any educated man of the clumsiness of the imposture."
"...difficult to deal seriously with Smith's impudent fraud."
"Smith has turned the Goddess into a king and Osiris into Abraham."
"...very clearly demonstrates that he (Joseph Smith) was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian Writing and civilization."
"...the attempts to guess a meaning are too absurd to be noticed. It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations."
"There had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children." Millions of people were "slain by the sword", yet no swords have ever been found from pre-Columbian America. 15:2
Wherever he found his speech growing too modern -- which was about every sentence or two -- he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as 'exceeding sore,' 'and it came to pass,' etc., and made things satisfactory again. 'And it came to pass' was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet. -- Mark Twain, Roughing It,
And it came to pass ... Excessive use of Exceedingly 1 Nephi "I make a record in the language of my father ... the language of the Egyptians." That's a strange language an Israelite around 600 BCE to write in!
1:2 It only took Nephi and his family three days to travel from Jerusalem to the Red Sea. (A distance of 250 miles)
2:6 After cutting off Laban's head, Nephi puts on Laban's clothes, and speaks to his servant "in the voice of Laban." The servant is fooled into thinking Nephi is his master.
4:19-21 Laban's servant figured Nephi was Laban and that he spoke for the church. What church? The Jews in 600 BCE didn't have churches, did they?
4:26 It must have been an exceedingly good costume! Even Nephi's brothers thought he was Laban (because he was wearing Laban's clothes). Omni
"He dwelt with them for the space of nine moons." (That's "Indian talk" for nine months.) 1:21
When Jesus dies (Remember this prophecy was made before Jesus had even been born!) it will be absolutely dark for three days and nights. No sun, moon, stars, candles, or campfires. 14:20,27
When Jesus dies mountains will become valleys and vice versa, cities destroyed, and dead people will come back to life. 14:23-25
"The unbelievers" set aside a day just to kill believers. (They called it "National kill a believer day.") 1:9
God makes a repetitive and rambling speech announcing his own birth. He says that he'll be born tommorow. And that later that evening "a sign would be given." 1:12-13
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You REALLY need to cut back on your anti-Mormon intake. If you want to find out what LDS Christians believe, go to them directly and make sure you understand not just what words were said, but also what those words mean to them. Similarly, no one should necessarily trust an atheist or Muslim's description of Evangelicalism no matter how many Bible quotes are included.
), that both Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt used the Bible to practically an exclusive degree when explaining and teaching doctrine, right? You DO know, don't you, that Orson Pratt claimed to have memorized the Bible so that "when any one quoted one verse, I could quote the next," right? You know that he did this in German as well, right? And Hebrew?
Of course, for several generations before that the Book of Mormon had been much less frequently used in the Church and practically ignored by LDS scholars.
Good talking with you Paul and thanks for your input!!! Blessings!!
