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KJV Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Same word in Greek. If the punishment is not forever, then the gift of life to believers has an end, so it also is not eternal?
Every Lexicon I have, including Koine Greek, but not Biblical Greek, all show eternal/everlasting as a meaning. I find no respected lexicon that shows otherwise.
Every lexicon I found shows it as a common meaning IN Jesus day and before (Philo, Josephus, Maccabees, etc).
My understanding of this meaning of eternal as it was explained to me:
It's like looking out at the ocean. We can see to the horizon and for us that's as far as we can see. This is what Jesus is referring to when he uses aionian life and aionian punishment--that span of time from the present to what can be perceived as the edge of eternity.
But we cannot see what lies beyond what we perceive as the edge of the world. What lies beyond that edge is hidden from our eyes. In the same way aionian life/punishment in Jesus' description carries us to that edge; what lies beyond it God has chosen to keep to Himself.
KJV Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Same word in Greek. If the punishment is not forever, then the gift of life to believers has an end, so it also is not eternal?
Every Lexicon I have, including Koine Greek, but not Biblical Greek, all show eternal/everlasting as a meaning. I find no respected lexicon that shows otherwise.
Every lexicon I found shows it as a common meaning IN Jesus day and before (Philo, Josephus, Maccabees, etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
A good explanation, but not conclusive as to aoinion as if the life believers get is eternal, then we need a verse that says the punishment or non existence is not eternal. You are assuming the meanings are not the same, when it also could easily be argued that the focus on believers simply provides reinforcement as to what the word means to them, without limiting it to the the ones punished.
Take note of the two things I highlighted and underlined. I think you misunderstood me in part expat, I am not saying they are not the same, I am saying they are the same, and neither one means without beginning and without end.
I wrote this in another thread also.
I suppose the best place to start would be with the one word that has caused so much confusion toward Jesus Christ being the saviour of ALL MEN. And that one simple word is aion and its adjective aionios.
1. Many scholars will tell us that the word aion and its adjective aionios mean eternal, eternal means something without a beginning and without an ending.
2. These same scholars will tell us that at the time the New Testament waswritten, the aion and its adjective aionios, meant without beginning and without end (eternal).
Do these scholars have any proof to back up their statements? Or do they translate according to their own bias?
Let's take a look.
Scripture testifies that the aions have a beginning.
Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds/aions.
The aions were MADE.
1 Corinthians 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world/aion unto our glory:
BEFORE the aion.
2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world/aionios began,
BEFORE the aionios BEGAN.
Scripture testifies that the aions have an end.
Hebrews 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world/aion hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The aion ENDS
1 Corinthians 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world/aion are come.
The aion ENDS
Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world/aion?
The aion ENDS.
Thus we can see that scripture testifies for itself that the aions have a beginning and end.
1. Therefore as scripture states that the aion and it's adjective aionios have a beginning and an end what right do these scholars have to say that aion and its adjective are without beginning and without end? None whatsoever, these scholars are translating from their own bias. They have not taken what the scriptures themselves state about aion and its adjective aionios, but have translated the words according to their own doctrinal belief. Thus showing that they place their doctrine over what the scriptures actually tell us.
What then can be said of the second statement? Did the word aion and its adjective mean without beginning and without end (eternal) at the time the New Testament waswritten?
2. Well,did we not just read the scriptures that showed aion and its adjective aionios have a beginning and an end? Were these scriptures, that tell us that aion and its adjective aionios have a beginning and an end an interpolation, written hundreds of years after the New Testament waswritten and then placed into the New Testament?
Well if we are to believe the scholars who say that at the time of the writing of the New Testament aion and its adjective aionios meant without beginning and without end that is the only logical conclusion.
Why is it the only logical conclusion? Because either those scriptures that state aion and its adjective aionios have a beginning and an end were written at the time of the writing of the New Testament or they are an interpolation to the New Testament added at a later date.
Thus again we can see that those scholars are translating according to their own bias, placing their doctrine over what the scriptures actually show us.
Not only do those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation have to play around and twist the meaning of the Greek word aion and its adjective aionios to fit their doctrine, they have to play around and twist the English word they believe is translated correctly, eternal, in order to make it fit their doctrine.
Eternal means WITHOUT BEGINNING and without end. Yet those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation must play around and twist the meaning of eternal to mean only something that is without end. They have to do this because the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation have a STARTING POINT. This starting point occurs AFTER the great white throne judgment.
Therefore the reader can see that those who believe in the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation not only have to play around and twist the meaning of the Greek word used in scripture, they also have to play around and twist the meaning of the English word used to translate the Greek word in scripture in order for them to fit their man made doctrines.
So what is the true meaning of the word aion and its adjective aionios?
Aion means age, and its adjective means that which pertains to the age.
Any good literal translation will translate aion as age and it adjective aionios as age-during. I would suggest the reader to get Young's literal translation or Rotherham emphasised bible as it will help the reader to see that the word aion and its adjective aionios ALWAYS pertain to an age.
I've addressed this here. I will be happy to address sincere and informed concerns with specific aspects of that post, but I'm not going to waste my time with Eusebius and anyone else who only has "Nu-uh!" to add.
Daniel I read your reply to E and it does not cover the 3 questions I asked you.
1. Can you prove aionios means eternal (without beginning and without end) in scripture?
2. Can you give me a scripture where aionios means without beginning and without end/eternal? You said all of them in your reply to E, which is hardly the case. If you are following this thread you will see that I supplied scripture that states aionios has a beginning.
3. Can you explain from the scripture you use to show aionios means without beginning and without end/eternal and why it must mean without beginning and without end/eternal?
Daniel this is a sincere request and you will never get an Nu-uh from me. I drive everyone nuts because I always reply to everything someone says and request that they do the same, which hardly ever happens, most just quit talking to me.
Like I said Daniel I have enjoyed your posts, and I do think highly of your expertise, I just think you are in error on this point ( no one is perfect) and wanted you to explain why you believe what you do.
Take note of the two things I highlighted and underlined. I think you misunderstood me in part expat, I am not saying they are not the same, I am saying they are the same, and neither one means without beginning and without end.
I wrote this in another thread also.
I suppose the best place to start would be with the one word that has caused so much confusion toward Jesus Christ being the saviour of ALL MEN. And that one simple word is aion and its adjective aionios.
1. Many scholars will tell us that the word aion and its adjective aionios mean eternal, eternal means something without a beginning and without an ending.
2. These same scholars will tell us that at the time the New Testament was written, the aion and its adjective aionios, meant without beginning and without end (eternal).
Do these scholars have any proof to back up their statements? Or do they translate according to their own bias?
Let's take a look.
Scripture testifies that the aions have a beginning.
Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds/aions.
The aions were MADE.
1 Corinthians 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world/aion unto our glory:
BEFORE the aion.
2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world/aionios began,
BEFORE the aionios BEGAN.
Scripture testifies that the aions have an end.
Hebrews 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world/aion hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The aion ENDS
1 Corinthians 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world/aion are come.
The aion ENDS
Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world/aion?
The aion ENDS.
Thus we can see that scripture testifies for itself that the aions have a beginning and end.
And these are different senses of the Greek word. One usage that refers to a beginning or an end of an eon or a time period does not mean that another usage cannot refer to an endless one. This is basic linguistics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
1. Therefore as scripture states that the aion and it's adjective aionios have a beginning and an end what right do these scholars have to say that aion and its adjective are without beginning and without end?
They're not saying it unilaterally means that. They're saying it can mean that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
None whatsoever, these scholars are translating from their own bias. They have not taken what the scriptures themselves state about aion and its adjective aionios, but have translated the words according to their own doctrinal belief. Thus showing that they place their doctrine over what the scriptures actually tell us.
If you're going to pretend to lecture anyone about what the Greek means, I expect you to show me you actually know even the least amount of Greek. Please translate the following and parse the verbal elements:
εἰσέλθετε εἰς ἀγορὰν δῶρα παρά γε τῶν ἀδικούντων ληφόμενοι
I will not respond to another word until you either translate and parse the above, or explain to me that you do not know Greek.
If you're going to pretend to lecture anyone about what the Greek means, I expect you to show me you actually know even the least amount of Greek. Please translate the following and parse the verbal elements:
εἰσέλθετε εἰς ἀγορὰν δῶρα παρά γε τῶν ἀδικούντων ληφόμενοι
I will not respond to another word until you either translate and parse the above, or explain to me that you do not know Greek.
Ah yes, the ole switcheroo. If one cannot answer a simple question that was asked in sincerity to Daniel, you will still be met with put downs rather than answering the question. And not only that, you will be met with the fallacy of: If you can't answer my (Daniel's) question, then I am under no obligation to answer your question.
He is under the false assumption that if one does not know Greek, then he is under no obligation to answer your question.
In effect, Daniel is using the fallacy: Red Herring
Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.
Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic (such as, If you can't translate this Greek) is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.
Daniel has presented an irrelevant topic in order to divert attention from the original issue.
Daniel, just answer his question. It really makes you look like a amateur when you treat others in such a puerile way.
pneuma, Daniel is under the false assumption that a word in the Sacred Scriptures can have opposite meanings. For if aion can be age (a period with a beginning and an end) and also mean "eternal" (having no beginning and no end) or (having a beginning but no end) then he is involved in what the Bible calls "the hypocrisy of false expressions." What is hypocrisy? It is where one idea or expression can purport to have one basic meaning but upon further investigation, has a meaning not actually inherent to that basic meaning.
It is like a minister who says he lives a righteous life but upon further investigation, he is found to live a very sinful life. Hypocrisy of false expressions is like that. Hypocrisy of false expressions would be like this: AIWN tells us it is a duration with beginning and end but upon further investigation actually has no beginning or end.
Does God use hypocrisy of false expressions as Daniel would suggest? No.
Language in itself is far too nuanced to make dogmatic statements that take in all expressions of any particular subject, and among the different authors, perceptions may vary about things that are not essential to faith. What strikes me is the need for each of us to examine why our perceptions are important to us. To me it is a matter of God's love, which is patient enough to make our perception of separation from Him an open-ended condition, dependent on our realization of His nature and our relationship to it.
KJV Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Same word in Greek. If the punishment is not forever, then the gift of life to believers has an end, so it also is not eternal?
So if God is everlasting then so are the mountains?
Hab 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
Quote:
Every Lexicon I have, including Koine Greek, but not Biblical Greek, all show eternal/everlasting as a meaning. I find no respected lexicon that shows otherwise.
Every lexicon I found shows it as a common meaning IN Jesus day and before (Philo, Josephus, Maccabees, etc).
If that were true then why did the LXX translators translate these two verses using the same greek words (supposedly meaning "everlasting contempt").
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
Isa 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον], and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
Yes, how dare I ask if you know Greek in a discussion about how the Greek language works.
Does anyone who works for this company actually know any of the languages, or is the translation done entirely by Strong's Concordance?
Again, you are deflecting from the original question which you have yet to answer. It is not about me or any company. It is not about if I or anyone else knows Greek.
I will restate the questions pneuma asked YOU to answer:
1. Can you prove aionios means eternal (without beginning and without end) in scripture?
2. Can you give me a scripture where aionios means without beginning and without end/eternal? You said all of them in your reply to E, which is hardly the case. If you are following this thread you will see that I supplied scripture that states aionios has a beginning.
3. Can you explain from the scripture you use to show aionios means without beginning and without end/eternal and why it must mean without beginning and without end/eternal?
Language in itself is far too nuanced to make dogmatic statements that take in all expressions of any particular subject, and among the different authors, perceptions may vary about things that are not essential to faith. What strikes me is the need for each of us to examine why our perceptions are important to us. To me it is a matter of God's love, which is patient enough to make our perception of separation from Him an open-ended condition, dependent on our realization of His nature and our relationship to it.
It actually does matter to ask the question concerning aiwnios.
You say "it is a matter of God's love." But what if your translation has "eternal torment"? Does that really
show a loving God or a god we should all abhor? It is impossible for God to eternally torture men, women
and children in the popular conception called "Hell" and still be a loving God. That is why this is so
important.
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