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Originally Posted by Julian658 Job is a poem where God and Satan make a bet. It is another instance where Satan is elevated to the same level as God by the mythological. mindset of primitive men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The Bible never once elevates Satan to the same level as God. So why do you say it as if it is a foregone conclusion?
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Originally Posted by Julian658
Why would God make a bet with Satan in the book of Job? It certainly elevates Satan a great deal to have a 'mano a mano" with God.
Notice Julian didn't really answer my question. Having a so-called "man to man" conversation is not the same as "primitive man elevating Satan to an equality with God."
God set the whole thing up in the first place.
Job 1:6-8 There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh,
and Satan came also in their midst. (7) Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan
answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it. (8) So
Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on
the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.
God brought Job up to get a reaction out of Satan, since, after all, Satan is an adversary. And in the
account, does Satan ever assume equality with God?
Job 1:12 "Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand, but you must not put forth
your hand upon himself. Then Satan went forth from Yahweh's presence."
God is the one Who sent Satan on the mission. That shows inequality.
Everyone seems hung up with the role of Satan and supposed equality with God. Satan means adversary. In the Jewish scriptures the word Satan is used in several different ways, including human adversaries and the angel that blocked Balaam's donkey, as well as the prosecuting attorney in the court of God.
In Job I see Satan simply as a plot element to explain why Job should be subjected to such disasters. The real point of Job is to explore different possible reasons for the existence of suffering. The ultimate answer that God gives to Job is four chapters of 'Shut up and sit down! I'm GOD!' In other words, when life buries you in lemons (or worse) do not ask why. Just keep on keeping on and stay faithful to God. And don't ask why!
You see...this is what I mean. In here you have about 4 different types of Christians and they cannot agree on whether to take the text literally or allegorically. I said this in my initial post:
"I now realize that the story was not literal and was used, rather, as a vehicle to try to explain an age old mystery - why do good/righteous people suffer?"
Alt Thinker then expands on this by stating this:
"The ultimate answer that God gives to Job is four chapters of 'Shut up and sit down! I'm GOD!' In other words, when life buries you in lemons (or worse) do not ask why. Just keep on keeping on and stay faithful to God. And don't ask why!"
That is correct. In a theocratic society where it was believed God controlled ALL things, one was not to question him. Suffering was seen as orchestrated by him for some ultimate good even when we could not understand it, as in the case of Job, supposedly the earth's MOST righteous man. If it could happen to him, then it could happen to you and the template was that Job remained faithful and we should too. The story being REAL is another story because again, one has to ask, who was around to record the conversation between God and Satan. It certainly points to a MADE UP story to convey a lesson.
As for the Satan character, at the time of the writing of Job, it appears the common word "satan," meaning "adversary" (any adversary whether human or inanimate) had already been theologically converted to an actual being known as Satan and the story hints at this transitional stage in Jewish theology. What it eventually did was give more license to absolve God of being ANY part of orchestrating anything that resembled evil because the inevitable question arises, "if ALL things come from God, can't one then say, God orchestrates or allows bad things to happen even to his favorite children?" To fix that, you give evil its own face and its own name, hence the New Testament concept of an actual, physical being known as Satan who is NOT like the character in Job chilling with God and holding conversations, but rather, one who is pitted against God, has his own kingdom and minions and operates independent of God.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 11-14-2014 at 10:26 AM..
Everyone seems hung up with the role of Satan and supposed equality with God. Satan means adversary. In the Jewish scriptures the word Satan is used in several different ways, including human adversaries and the angel that blocked Balaam's donkey, as well as the prosecuting attorney in the court of God.
In Job I see Satan simply as a plot element to explain why Job should be subjected to such disasters. The real point of Job is to explore different possible reasons for the existence of suffering. The ultimate answer that God gives to Job is four chapters of 'Shut up and sit down! I'm GOD!' In other words, when life buries you in lemons (or worse) do not ask why. Just keep on keeping on and stay faithful to God. And don't ask why!
Exactly, it is an allegoric tale to explain a question many believers have. Why is there suffering in the world if God is supposed to be good.
And on the side note, NO, there is nothing that can be said that is going to "bring me back" to the fold. Case closed, but thanks for the implicit or explicit invitations, but I thoroughly enjoy talking about the Bible and trying to present proper perspectives, free from the trappings of devotional, esoteric understandings. I prefer to see it in its historical context and keep things grounded in reality.
Basically, "liberal Christianity" is used to describe theologians that try to undermine the texts. They may use an allegorical method of hermeneutics....implying that the events of the Bible didn't REALLY happen...but are merely stories told to teach us a lesson.
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