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Old 03-23-2015, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus

Why is this essential? Would the message be different if the miracles never happened?
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Old 03-23-2015, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Hmmm, now this one gets me thinking. To your point, no the message would not be different if the miracles never happened. But I do believe in the miracles described because:
  1. Christ is both merciful and powerful.
  2. They are the sorts of things that a person such as Jesus would just naturally do. "These folks are starving, let's feed them." Curing the sick because he is love personified. How could he not?
  3. We poor knuckleheaded mortals don't seem to notice that anything is important until somebody draws a lot of attention to it. Big flashy lights, loud sirens, that sort of thing.
  4. The miracles of Christ helped the people then and even now realize that something important was about to happen.

Did they get some things wrong? Sure! Were some of Jesus' miracles made up years after the fact? It's quite possible. As you said, it doesn't actually change the message. But I do think that most of the miracles attributed to Christ really did happen.
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Old 03-24-2015, 12:50 AM
 
1,614 posts, read 1,246,484 times
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I've had enough of your threads Nate. Is this your week to SPAM the forum with too many topics? I have to work for a living. I am not engaging in your foolishness any further I do believe in miracles, yes. Carry on.
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Old 03-24-2015, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,397,591 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heart_Song View Post
I've had enough of your threads Nate. Is this your week to SPAM the forum with too many topics? I have to work for a living. I am not engaging in your foolishness any further I do believe in miracles, yes. Carry on.
Hi HS, I have actually enjoyed Nates topics of late (one of the reasons I am back) he is not spamming sis but trying to get people to think. Which in my opinion is a good thing.

Did the miracles happen? I would say yes for we are called to heal the blind, cast out devils and raise the dead. Is this only a spiritual application, or is it to be in a physical application also? I believe it is both as all the apostle state things about what they had SEEN that Jesus did. Jesus even said go tell John what you have SEEN.
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Old 03-24-2015, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,397,591 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Hmmm, now this one gets me thinking. To your point, no the message would not be different if the miracles never happened. But I do believe in the miracles described because:
  1. Christ is both merciful and powerful.
  2. They are the sorts of things that a person such as Jesus would just naturally do. "These folks are starving, let's feed them." Curing the sick because he is love personified. How could he not?
  3. We poor knuckleheaded mortals don't seem to notice that anything is important until somebody draws a lot of attention to it. Big flashy lights, loud sirens, that sort of thing.
  4. The miracles of Christ helped the people then and even now realize that something important was about to happen.
Did they get some things wrong? Sure! Were some of Jesus' miracles made up years after the fact? It's quite possible. As you said, it doesn't actually change the message. But I do think that most of the miracles attributed to Christ really did happen.
I agree, it is just something Jesus would have done.
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Old 03-24-2015, 11:06 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,354,925 times
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus

Why is this essential? Would the message be different if the miracles never happened?
In Protestant circles miracles ended with the Apostolic Age.

In Catholicism miracles are ongoing.

From a religion point of view this is powerful and religion is religion and in religion anything goes.
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Old 03-24-2015, 11:08 AM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,212,671 times
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Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
In Protestant circles miracles ended with the Apostolic Age.
Actually....there is a wide range of belief regarding Spiritual gifts and miracles among Protestants.
Quote:
In Catholicism miracles are ongoing.

From a religion point of view this is powerful and religion is religion and in religion anything goes.
Can you give some examples of these miracles?
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Old 03-24-2015, 11:23 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,354,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Actually....there is a wide range of belief regarding Spiritual gifts and miracles among Protestants.
Miracles in the Protestant Church?????? Never heard about it! Can you provide examples?


Quote:
Can you give some examples of these miracles?
In 1858 in the grotto of Massabielle, near Lourdes, France, the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared 18 times to Bernadette Soubirous, a 14 year old peasant girl. She identified herself as The Immaculate Conception. She gave Bernadette a message for all: "Pray and do penance for the conversion of the world." The Church investigated Bernadette's claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Lourdes has since become one of the most famous shrines, attracting more than a million pilgrims each year. There have been thousands of miraculous cures at this shrine.
A Medical Bureau was established in 1882 to test the authenticity of the cures. The doctors include unbelievers as well as believers and any doctor is welcome to take part in the examination of the alleged cures. As many as 500 medical men of all faiths or no faith have taken advantage of the invitation each year. Many books and movies tell the story of Lourdes. Even Hollywood made a movie of this remarkable event in the 1940's entitled "The Song of Bernadette" which won six academy awards.
No one leaves Lourdes without a gain in faith. Moral and spiritual cures are more marvelous than physical cures. Some go to Lourdes with lifetime prejudices, yet their minds are cleared in a sudden manner. Frequently skepticism gives way to faith; coldness and antagonism become whole hearted love of God. Again and again those who are not cured of bodily pain receive an increase of faith and resignation – true peace of soul. The story of two outstanding miracles that occurred at Lourdes are told below.


A Voice from beyond the grave- The miraculous voice of St Clelia Barbieri
St Clelia Barbieri died of tuberculosis on July 13, 1870 when she was only 23 years old. Her last words to her religious Sisters were prophetic: "Be brave because I am going to Paradise; but I shall always remain with you, too; I shall never abandon you!" This prophecy was realized as she soon proved her presence by the sounding of her voice. The miraculous phenomenon of her voice first took place during the evening of July 13, 1871, exactly one year after Clelia's death, while the sisters were at prayer in the chapel. The Sisters declared that:

“Suddenly there was the sound of a high-pitched, harmonious and heavenly voice that accompanied the singing in the choir; at times it sang solo, at other times it harmonized with the choir, moving across from right to left; sometimes it passed close by the ears of one or other of the sisters. The joy which it brought filled our hearts with a happiness impossible to put into words. This wasn't of this world. We lived that day in paradise. From time to time, one had to leave the room ... The emotion that we experienced was so strong that it left you breathless until one had to call out: "Enough, dear Lord, enough!"
And remarkably, her voice is still heard today....



The Eucharist alone -A complete abstinence from food for 13 years
"On March 27, 1942 in a blaze of agony and adoring love, Alexandrina cried out to Jesus in the tabernacle of the nearby church, "Oh my Eucharistic Love, I cannot live without you! Oh Jesus, transform me into your Eucharist! Mother, my dearest Mother, I wish to be of Jesus, I wish to be entirely yours!"
And deep within her soul she heard Jesus’ profound reply:

"You will not take food again on earth. Your food will be my Flesh; your blood will be my Divine Blood, your life will be my Life. You receive it from me when I unite my Heart to your heart. Do not fear, my daughter. You will not be crucified any more as in the past .... And now a new trial awaits you, which will be the most painful of all. But in the end I will carry you to Heaven and the Holy Mother will accompany you."

Thus on March 27, 1942 Blessed Alexandrina da Costa began an absolute fast which was to last more than thirteen years until her death, her sole nourishment being Holy Communion which she received with deep devotion every morning.

"For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him." (John 6:55-56)
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Old 03-24-2015, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,649 posts, read 84,943,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heart_Song View Post
I've had enough of your threads Nate. Is this your week to SPAM the forum with too many topics? I have to work for a living. I am not engaging in your foolishness any further I do believe in miracles, yes. Carry on.
You might have missed the post where he said he was going to do these threads based on the five fundamentals said to be required to be believed in to be a Christian. There was a link to these five.

The point was to foster discussion. I for one am glad to see these discussions and participate in them if I find I have something to say. I see worse spam in the threads that endlessly spit out bible verses with no context or meaning.
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Old 03-24-2015, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Florida -
10,213 posts, read 14,849,935 times
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Does anyone but, me, find it ironic that one who regularly discounts 'fundamentalism', particularly when it comes to a belief in God's direct inspiration of scripture, ... is now spitting-out threads about the "fundamentals" of Christianity?

If one doesn't believe that "all scripture is inspired by God," what then is one's basis for differentiating between 'truth' and 'error' when it comes to any scriptural position? (ie; miracles, inerrancy, etc). Perhaps one has a private interpretation of scripture and truth - that exceeds scripture?
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