Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
1. You can choose to believe God lies and does not keep His promises,
OR
2. You can admit that you are not understanding the passage correctly.
There is no question that this is a difficult passage, however, my faith in God allows me to trust that He cannot and does not lie, and He keeps His promises. So I choose # 2, even though I am the first to admit that I do not have perfect understanding of the passage.
I'm wondering if your mind is already made up, and you have started this thread as a way to try and disprove the Bible? Or ar you sincerely seeking the truth and a way to understand the passage. I would appreciate an honest answer from you about this.
I'd like to think the latter, and that you are willing to look deeper for the answer, just as I would. So with that in mind, I would ask you two questions:
What does God mean by "mine house?" (KJV)
AND
What is the immediate context of the passage?
Katie
Sorry for the late reply---so many comments; some slip by me.
Quote:
1. You can choose to believe God lies and does not keep His promises,
The God of deism does not lie. He's not the same god as Yahweh. He doesn't involve Himself in man's affairs like the pagan god of Abraham, to the point of slaughtering whole civilizations of women and children to steal their lands away from them to give to his people and stoning children merely for talking back to their parents--just two among many atrocities attributed to the Old Testament pagan god, Yahweh.
Why do I say "pagan" god? Because it's obvious the Hebrews modeled their god after surrounding foreigners' gods and gave him human attributes like anger, jealously, homophobia, spite, vengeance, and because he was god they gave him a free pass to indulge these negative behaviors as often as he liked.
When you examine Yahweh there's not a dime's worth of difference between him and Zeus, except for the sexual stuff, and even then the whole story of God impregnating a virgin to give birth to a human savior child is straight out of pagan gods' playbooks. A real God would never demonstrate these types of attributes, which is why I say the deist's God is pure love; what Christians call sins and make a person worthy of eternal suffering in fiery hell are nothing more than life learning lessons to the deist God and God doesn't condemn us for them as long as we recognize our errors and try to learn from them.
Quote:
2. You can admit that you are not understanding the passage correctly.
You're missing a third option, one that zthatzmanz, I believe it was, alluded to:
3. Yahweh didn't inspire Zechariah, therefore Yahweh doesn't have to honor what it says. The verse says in black and white that Y promises to NEVER let a foreign power invade Israel again, ever--after the Babylonian invasion. Clearly this was not the case when the Romans invaded. Clearly Zechariah was wrong and no amount of spinning like Mike555 tried to do can erase this fact to anyone who can read plain simple English. There's no need to write a 200-page doctoral thesis of excuses and explanations, as apologists are so fond of doing, to justify a simple broken promise. A clearer simple explanation is that someone added the passage to Zechariah to give Jews hope.
Quote:
I'm wondering if your mind is already made up, and you have started this thread as a way to try and disprove the Bible? Or ar you sincerely seeking the truth and a way to understand the passage. I would appreciate an honest answer from you about this.
It should be clear to everyone by now that I no longer believe the Bible is the true God's inerrant, infallible word dictated directly to men by God. If it was there wouldn't be so many errors in science, logic, theology and pure love for humanity as there are found now. Apologetics wouldn't have to exist at all. Apologetics exist mainly because they are a cash cow ($$$$$'s) for scoundrels like James White, William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel and Mack the Slick to earn a good living off doing debates with atheists. A divinely inspired book would leave no doubts as to what it was trying to say. It wouldn't couch the truth in such vague Nostradamus-like symbolisms to say something, and people who realize this are starting to call the proponents of Christian theism out on their deceit, which the apologists love because they then give even more debates and make even more $$$$$'s. It's a business with them. If they pick up a few brainwashed zombies along the way, all the better.
Quote:
What does God mean by "mine house?" (KJV)
AND
What is the immediate context of the passage?
"Mine house" I presume is the Jewish people. Context is "I will protect mine house from all foreign invaders from now to the end of time". As I said, clearly the writer wasn't speaking for yahweh because Yahweh did not honor this promise made in his name, thus the Roman armies successfully invaded Israel and thus Yahweh did nothing to stop them. So Yahweh did not lie and I understand the prophecy fully: it's not a legitimate prophecy.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 09-28-2015 at 11:04 AM..
Sorry for the late reply---so many comments; some slip by me.
The God of deism does not lie. He's not the same god as Yahweh. He doesn't involve Himself in man's affairs like the pagan god of Abraham, to the point of slaughtering whole civilizations of women and children to steal their lands away from them to give to his people and stoning children merely for talking back to their parents--just two among many atrocities attributed to the Old Testament pagan god, Yahweh.
Why do I say "pagan" god? Because it's obvious the Hebrews modeled their god after surrounding foreigners' gods and gave him human attributes like anger, jealously, homophobia, spite, vengeance, and because he was god they gave him a free pass to indulge these negative behaviors as often as he liked.
When you examine Yahweh there's not a dime's worth of difference between him and Zeus, except for the sexual stuff, and even then the whole story of God impregnating a virgin to give birth to a human savior child is straight out of pagan gods' playbooks. A real God would never demonstrate these types of attributes, which is why I say the deist's God is pure love; what Christians call sins and make a person worthy of eternal suffering in fiery hell are nothing more than life learning lessons to the deist God and God doesn't condemn us for them as long as we recognize our errors and try to learn from them.
You're missing a third option, one that zthatzmanz, I believe it was, alluded to:
3. Yahweh didn't inspire Zechariah, therefore Yahweh doesn't have to honor what it says. The verse says in black and white that Y promises to NEVER let a foreign power invade Israel again, ever--after the Babylonian invasion. Clearly this was not the case when the Romans invaded. Clearly Zechariah was wrong and no amount of spinning like Mike555 tried to do can erase this fact to anyone who can read plain simple English. There's no need to write a 200-page doctoral thesis of excuses and explanations, as apologists are so fond of doing, to justify a simple broken promise. A clearer simple explanation is that someone added the passage to Zechariah to give Jews hope.
It should be clear to everyone by now that I no longer believe the Bible is the true God's inerrant, infallible word dictated directly to men by God. If it was there wouldn't be so many errors in science, logic, theology and pure love for humanity as there are found now. Apologetics wouldn't have to exist at all. Apologetics exist mainly because they are a cash cow ($$$$$'s) for scoundrels like James White, William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel and Mack the Slick to earn a good living off doing debates with atheists. A divinely inspired book would leave no doubts as to what it was trying to say. It wouldn't couch the truth in such vague Nostradamus-like symbolisms to say something, and people who realize this are starting to call the proponents of Christian theism out on their deceit, which the apologists love because they then give even more debates and make even more $$$$$'s. It's a business with them. If they pick up a few brainwashed zombies along the way, all the better.
"Mine house" I presume is the Jewish people. Context is "I will protect mine house from all foreign invaders from now to the end of time". As I said, clearly the writer wasn't speaking for yahweh because Yahweh did not honor this promise made in his name, thus the Roman armies successfully invaded Israel and thus Yahweh did nothing to stop them. So Yahweh did not lie and I understand the prophecy fully: it's not a legitimate prophecy.
Okay, thank you for answering my post, and for your honesty.
I'll move on, at this point. As long as you believe the God of Abraham is a pagan god, we have no common ground to discuss Scriptures.
I wonder why you would even bother? You can only have one goal in mind, and that is to disparage the Word of God and God Himself. So I'll leave you to it.
Okay, thank you for answering my post, and for your honesty.
I'll move on, at this point. As long as you believe the God of Abraham is a pagan god, we have no common ground to discuss Scriptures.
I wonder why you would even bother? You can only have one goal in mind, and that is to disparage the Word of God and God Himself. So I'll leave you to it.
I'll answer very quickly and then move on as well. My purpose is to give an honest critique to gullible Christians of why the Bible cannot be God's infallible Word---the reason is simple: it's fallible and Zechariah 9:8 proves it. So I'll leave you to your god's fallible word.
NO, the real God is all-loving. The gods of religions, particularly the Christian one is evil:
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
(Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
(Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
(Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
(Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
(Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
(Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
(Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
(Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
(Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
(2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
(Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night But if she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. [Apparently, God never bothered telling them that many women accidentally break their hymen in a variety of ways]
(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1)kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) stone him to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and stone him to death. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets execute them (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
must die. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
(Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle will be executed. (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, God struck him dead (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
Kill Sons of Sinners Make ready to slaughter his sons (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children the LORD said: kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all old and young, girls and women and little children. God commanded: "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women "You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
This Yahweh is about the most evil, bloodthirsty savage in all of literature. And this is the god the Christians worship! Incredible. Speechless!
NO, the real God is all-loving. The gods of religions, particularly the Christian one is evil:
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
(Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
(Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
(Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
(Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
(Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
(Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
(Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
(Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
(Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
(2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
(Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night But if she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. [Apparently, God never bothered telling them that many women accidentally break their hymen in a variety of ways]
(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1)kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) stone him to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and stone him to death. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets execute them (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
must die. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
(Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle will be executed. (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, God struck him dead (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
Kill Sons of Sinners Make ready to slaughter his sons (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children the LORD said: kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all old and young, girls and women and little children. God commanded: "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women "You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
This Yahweh is about the most evil, bloodthirsty savage in all of literature. And this is the god the Christians worship! Incredible. Speechless!
Who is this real god that you speak of? Where can one go to learn about him?
Who is this real god that you speak of? Where can one go to learn about him?
Preface to your question:
Humans, since the dawn of civilization, have had this innate need to worship a being higher than themselves, whether it's the sun which gives their crops life or the moon which lights the night or other beings constructed from folklore and tales told around a fire to keep them warm and to protect them from predators.
As civilizations advanced the legends became more and more complex and epic stories were built around them such as the epic of Gilgamesh from which the Jews stole their own version of the flood (Noah and the ark).
Point being that all gods of religions are constructed by the people who worship them after their own particular cultures. They depict their gods as they imagine them to be. The Jews' Yahweh was a jealous, vengeful god who could be loving one moment and violently hateful and wrathful the next; who, without blinking an eye, could order the slaughter of whole civilizations of women, children and infants, livestock--anything and everything that moved. As civilized people today, we understand how primitives thought and acted out in this fashion thousands of years ago in the Stone and Bronze Ages--it was necessary for survival of their tribes and they modeled their gods to be their protectors from their enemies. So it was with the Jews whose god, Yahweh according to the folklore always protected them from their enemies and gave them victory from them. All this was codified in what we now know as the Old Testament. The error Christians made was including the Old Testament in their own literature, the New Testament and then drawing quite a bit off the OT to create their own Testament. Consequently Christians worship this monstrous god of the ancient Jews.
But anyone with a modicum of decency doesn't worship such an evil entity today---except Christians, who, for whatever psychological reasons when it comes to Yahweh, turn off their sense of decency and worship this basically human god-construct who was merely a reflection of the ancient Jews' own murderous impulses.
Yahweh, Zeus, Jupiter, Quetzalcoatl, and ten thousand other deities are nothing like the true God of the universe who loves us unconditionally and wants nothing from us more than to love our fellow man and treat them with decency, respect and love. That's all God wants from us. Anything more is man-made dogma.
If you want to know the true God just serve your fellow man in whatever capacity and treat them as you would want them to treat you and just try to live a morally decent life. It's a simple as that. You don't have to pray to God; He doesn't actively intervene because of prayer anyway---studies on the efficacy of prayer show that atheists have just as good an outcome from no prayer as Christians do from having prayer; actually the outcome from being prayed for is a little worse for Christians. That's it.
Wow, I hardly think that G-d as described in Psalm 23 is "merely a reflection of the ancient Jews (my ancestors, btw) own murderous impulses".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
