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Wow, I hardly think that G-d as described in Psalm 23 is "merely a reflection of the ancient Jews (my ancestors, btw) own murderous impulses".
Certainly there are passages in the Old Testament where Yahweh says he loves his people. But would you marry a person who professed love to you and at the same time was a serial mass murderer? Could you ever trust a person with such homicidal tendencies?
Just so we get this thread back on topic here's the verse in question, Zechariah 9:8
Quote:
But I will encamp at my templeto guard it against marauding forces. Never again will an oppressor overrun my people, for now I am keeping watch.
Yahweh never kept his word. He promised Israel that after the Babylonian invasion Israel would never again be conquered by foreign invaders. But foreign invaders did conquer Israel in 50 BC when the Romans marched into Israel. Not only that but Yahweh promised that he would guard his temple from defilement. But history famously shows that the Romans did defile his temple. They set it on fire to melt its gold, destroying the temple in the process, and then disassembled the temple block by block. not only that, they razed Jerusalem. Millions of Jews died. The rest were scattered to the winds. Some promise.
It is interesting to note that when Jesus talked to his disciples about all this ("I tell you not one stone will be left atop one another...") he never once mentioned Zechariah's prophecy nor did the apostles ask him about Zechariah 9:8, "Master, what about the prophecy of Zechariah which says that Yahweh will guard the temple from harm?" Apparently, Jesus and the apostles knew nothing about this prophecy--more proof that Jesus was either just an ordinary man unfamiliar with much of the Old Testament and not the all-knowing Son of God, or this story is just fabricated by the writers of the gospels because they never mention it so it is obvious they were not at all familiar with this prophecy. Nor are 99.9% of Christians today, apparently.
Some here have tried to offer lame explanations for why it looks like god broke his word but in fact did not i.e. the prophecy was speaking only of Alexander the Great and not the Romans. But I think it's pretty clear to anybody who can read plain English that the prophecy says "never again" and "never again" means... well, "never again".
Last edited by thrillobyte; 09-30-2015 at 11:09 AM..
No serious challenges to my thesis that Zechariah 9:8 was a false prediction, therefore we can conclude Zechariah was a false prophet, therefore we can conclude the Bible is errant and not the inspired word of God. Read it for some good advice here and there on how to be a better person, nothing more.
No serious challenges to my thesis that Zechariah 9:8 was a false prediction, therefore we can conclude Zechariah was a false prophet, therefore we can conclude the Bible is errant and not the inspired word of God. Read it for some good advice here and there on how to be a better person, nothing more.
Case closed.
I explained Zechariah 9:8 to you in posts #21 and 23. Your inability to understand it, or your unwillingness to except it doesn't negate the validity of the explanation. Here, I will simply provide the statements of three different commentators, all of whom state that Zech. 9:8 pertains to a future fulfillment. This doesn't mean that all commentators agree with these three, but a future fulfillment, as is the case with so much of Old Testament prophecy, is the only valid view.
Expository Notes of Dr. Thomas Constable
Verse 8
The Lord promised to protect His people and land as with a band of soldiers since enemies would oppose them. "House" is probably a metonym for the whole land including its people. No enemy would oppress them ever again because the Lord had seen the plight of His people and would defend them (cf. Zechariah 4:10; Exodus 3:7; Psalms 32:8). This promise of no more oppression anticipates the second advent of Messiah.
"For their preservation at the time of Alexander and for their future deliverance from every oppressor, Israel is indebted to the providence of God which watched over them for good." [Note: Unger, p. 160.]
This section is a prophetic description of Yahweh's march from the north, using Alexander the Great as His instrument, destroying Gentiles nations but preserving the Jews. Zechariah later predicted the coming Roman Empire (Zechariah 11:4-14) and the kingdom of Messiah (chs. 12-14).
"As history shows, the agent of the Lord's judgment was Alexander the Great. After defeating the Persians (333 B.C.), Alexander moved swiftly toward Egypt. On his march he toppled the cities in the Aramean (Syrian) interior, as well as those on the Mediterranean coast. Yet, on coming to Jerusalem, he refused to destroy it." [Note: Barker, p. 657.]
Josephus reported that Alexander had a dream and because of it decided to spare Jerusalem. [Note: Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 11:8:3-5.]
"The first section of this ... part of the book establishes from the start two important facts: the Lord's victory is certain, and he intends to bring back to Himself peoples long alienated from Him. These truths underlie all that follows and culminate in the universal worship of the King, the Lord of hosts, in Zechariah 14:16-19." [Note: Baldwin, p. 162.]
"One should not ... anticipate a future scenario in which God will literally march from Hadrach to Jerusalem, establishing his dominion over all opposition. What is at hand is a formulaic way of asserting an unquestionably literal establishment of YHWH's kingship in the end times, a suzerainty to be achieved in the pattern well known to Zechariah and his fellow countrymen on the human level." [Note: Merrill, pp. 247-48. Cf. Chisholm, Handbook on . . ., p. 468.] [Bolding mine]
1. The burden of the land of Hadrach (Zechariah 9:1-8)
2. Zion’s King of Peace (Zechariah 9:9-12)
3. The near-event of the invasion by Antiochus Ephiphanes (Zechariah 9:13-17; Zechariah 10:1)
Zechariah 9:1-8. The final section of Zechariah is of still greater interest. The Deliverer, King Messiah, is revealed in this section as suffering, rejected, pierced, slain. The great finale leads us up to the great conflict and final siege of Jerusalem. We do not enter into the inventions of criticism, which claim that these great prophecies are less authentic than the first part of Zechariah.
The land of Hadrach against which the first burden in chapter 9 commences cannot be correctly located. Its closer connection with Damascus and Hamath shows that the land of Hadrach must have been a province of the Syrian kingdom then in existence. The Phoenician Cities Tyre and Sidon are next, and then mention is made of four Philistine cities. Against these, Syria, Phoenicia and the cities of the Philistines a great calamity and overthrow is prophesied by Zechariah. They are conquered by the hosts of an enemy, and the rich treasures of Tyre are heaped together in the streets--silver as the dust and gold as the mire--the bulwarks are smitten, and she herself consumed by fire. From there the conquest goes on rapidly to the Philistinian cities, and the King of Gaza perishes. The question arises, What conquest and calamity is this? Is it accomplished or is it still future? History records one great conqueror who rapidly overthrew the countries and cities mentioned in this burden. Alexander the Great and his expedition so successfully carried on is undoubtedly meant here. All students of the prophetic Scriptures know how prominently he likewise stands out in the book of Daniel. The young monarch, after the battle of Issus, besieged and quickly captured Damascus. Sidon was easily taken, but Tyre resisted him some seven months and was burned to the ground. Gaza and the other cities came next. Thus the burden of the word of Jehovah as uttered here by Zechariah was literally fulfilled in the Syrian conquest of Alexander the Great. However, history tells us that the armies of the youthful monarch passed by Jerusalem a number of times without doing harm to the city. This is remarkable, and in accord with the prophecy of Zechariah, for we read in the eighth verse, “And I will encamp against mine house, against the army, against him that passes through and returns, and no oppressor shall come over them any more, for now I have seen it with mine eyes.”
But this prophetic burden leads us up also to the final days, for we read here the promise that “no oppressor shall come over them any more.” This brings it in connection with the final coming deliverance of Israel, and the final destructive visitation upon their enemies. [Bolding mine]
9:8. The Macedonian armies of Alexander passed and repassed the city of Jerusalem without laying siege to it. The ultimate cause of this was the divine protection of the city (I will defend My house). This defense foreshadows God's final protection of the city in the Millennium, when never again will enemies invade Jerusalem (cf. Joel 3:17).
[The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 1562]
Zechariah 9:8 anticipates Christ's second advent at which time, and thereafter, Israel will be secure.
That is all the attention you will get from me, and it's more than you deserve, considering the explicitness of your agenda. I do expect that you will blow more hot air, but we're done.
Last edited by Michael Way; 10-01-2015 at 02:26 PM..
Read the entire passage . This is an eschatological passage about the eternal, eschatological state like Richard posits.
Which translation doesn't matter, just read the whole passage. God is going to destroy X,Y and Z among the nations and YET in verse 7(b) suddenly the passage exclaims "then they TOO will become a remnant for our God, THEY will become like a clan in Judah(i.e. Jews)". The worst of the worst of the gentile nations from the bible are both destroyed AND are going to come worship the God of the Jews voluntarily in the eschaton and this includes all humanity. That cannot be seen by any reasonable human as a historic proclamation and was not understood by ancient Jews as that.
This is in consonance literally and literarily(note the motif similarity, God will destroy the nations, then here they come worshipping God on Mt Zion) with Isaiah's eschatological proclamations such as Isaiah 25 , the great Messianic passage of the feast of Messiah, " On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth".
Isaiah 45:23 "By Myself I have sworn; Truth has gone from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow to Me, every tongue will swear allegiance" which Paul repeats twice in Philippians and Romans.
That's in the eternal state, not now.
Last edited by Pinetop; 10-05-2015 at 02:34 PM..
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Could you ever trust a person with such homicidal tendencies?
Pretty much. Mike, you get to keep the house, the car and the bank accounts, but I keep.....
