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Old 10-21-2015, 09:49 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,230 posts, read 26,440,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Ohhhhhh brrrrrother!!! here we go, ladies and gents. The apologists have rolled out a new buzzword, "PRE-PAULINE tradition".

Not content with the almost universally-accepted date of 53-57 AD for 1st Corinthians,



Mike is going to throw a new term at us to try to prove to us beyond a shadow of doubt that Corinthians actually dates much earlier---to within a few years of Jesus' resurrection!!! Now I've heard everything!

It sounds so impressive it MUST prove beyond any shadow of doubt that Corinthians actually dates 20 years earlier---to around 37 AD.

Here's how all this came about: too many skeptics were complaining that there's too wide a gap of absolute silence between Jesus' resurrection and Paul's first epistle. So the apologists went to the drawing board to try to push an epistle of Paul to within 4 years of Jesus' death to fill this huge gap of time when nobody wrote a single word about all this fantastic stuff Jesus did. The results were startling (and a little troubling) to behold. They came up with this screwy term, "PRE-PAULINE tradition". Now mix smoke, mirrors and obfuscation with generous amounts of $60 words and presto, you have an explanation that is so twisted and convoluted it makes the Gordian Knot look like thread tied in a needle's eye.

Just for the heck of it I looked the term up and here's the first place it pops up in a goggle search:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-witness-of-the-pre-pauline-tradition-to-the-empty-tomb

"Reasonable Faith", that crackpot website that's on a sub-level with CARM run by idiot par excellence, Mack Slick. Reasonable Faith is owned and operated by that master of dog and pony tricks, William Lane Craig. If you want a good laugh read the question posed to trickster Craig, probably by a guy who's just a phony beard hired to pose the question so that Craig can give the response he wants naïve skeptics to buy to the same question basically that has been asked around here numerous times, "How can we be sure Paul is reporting the truth when there is such a large gap between Paul's writings and Jesus."

Ever seen a person try to dance the Lambada, the Mambo, and the Tango all at once? It is a sight to behold and you're about to watch choreographer par extraordinaire, Craig actually attempt it. Here's the answer he gives:



So, the Lambada: genitive case and plural noun. (as if any layman could really comprehend that)
The Mamba: perfect-passsive verb (as if any layman could really understand what that means)
The Tango: ordinal number/Pre-Pauline confessional number (as if any layman would have the slightest clue what Craig is saying)

Really! You simply have to read the entire answer Craig gives this fellow who, if he is genuine, now is so confused he doesn't know if he's coming or going. Honestly, I don't believe Craig himself can comprehend what he just said, but it sure sounds impressive---impressive enough to make the case to even the most hardened skeptic that Corinthians Chap 15 was in fact written within 4 years of Jesus' resurrection.

Well, if Mike is going to learn to obfuscate, who better to learn from than that master of the 666-step Lanbada/Mamba/Tango, William Lane Craig.
Bart Ehrman is not an apologist. He speaks of pre-Pauline traditions and that what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 is a pre-Pauline tradition. It is not that the 1 Corinthians letter itself which was written in A.D. 54 or 55 is pre-Pauline, but that the specific information that Paul relays in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 is a tradition that Paul received from Peter and James probably when he visited them three years after his conversion. This should not be difficult to understand.

I suggest that you read post #42 very carefully.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:55 AM
 
339 posts, read 195,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It is impossible that 20.27 is reliable. It totally contradicts Luke who says the 11 (less Judas) were there and mentions the display of hands and feet but not the side. This appearance episode doesn't even appear in Matthew. Jesus appears to the women only and then the disciples trek off to Galilee and see Jesus there.
Any 'authority' who takes any of the resurrection account scripture as a basis -other than to show it up to be quite unreliable, is either so incompetent or biased that they have no claim to be an 'authority'.
The ENTIRE Bible is reliable IMO(2 Tim 3:16), so you have to do better than denial. Jesus said what He said in John 20:27, and Luke 11:1 is one disciple, NOT an apostle, asking Jesus a question.
Matthew and John used the term "the twelve", to identify the Apostles. Mark and Luke use the word Apostle. Everywhere else when disciple is used, it refers to the 72 men (Luke 10:1 ) that followed him regularly as well. Jesus had hundreds if not thousands of disciples throughout His ministry.
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:01 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,717,984 times
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Nice post. It perhaps gives me the chance to point out that there are discrepancies and contradictions that are easily dismissed as irrelevant and others that can be explained with a little ingenuity.

The one about Luke saying that Jesus would rise on the same day (Friday) seems to be a blow for the three day timeline, but proposing that ascending to paradise/3rd heaven/Bosom of Abraham was not actually 'rising from the dead' which only happened after Jesus had appeared to everyone get around that. The argument that paradise -is-not-heaven and is not actually rising from the dead because the body was still lying there is clever.

Even the stories like the shekel eating fish can be dismissed as something added to Matthew and 'just because we don't have to believe everything in the Bible, doesn't mean that it isn't true'.

That is why there are 'touchstone cases' as I call them. The Nativities contradict utterly simply on the basis of where Joseph and Mary came from and where they went. There is a sort of argument for a prior census in the time of Herod and while that is actually very unlikely, one can't prove that it did not happen. Though it comes close, since Joseph apparently getting his brown envelope to report to his 'Own city' was something of a routine matter - but Josephus doesn't even hint of it, when a census called by Herod ought to have been a matter of importance to him.

What one can prove is that Joseph's 'Own city' could never have been where King David had been born. Even if Joseph had been born there, Joseph's own city would be where he lived and worked -in Galilee (and the Egypt census document means this too, so nobody drum up the Egypt document as proof of Bethlehem). The only reason for the absurd and pointless trip to Bethlehem dragging Mary along for no reason (the argument that she had to sign on as well is nonsense; one household, one tax for all persons there) is to get Jesus into Bethlehem.
The Resurrection stories are equally 'touchstone' and I won't go into them again, except to point up two matters

The apparent agreement between John and Luke (but not Matthew) is that Jesus walked in and displayed his operation scar is in both gospels. So they are even though that is the only thing they agree on. Luke pretty much denies Thomas being absent or any spear -wound. (1) and John of course doesn't have Jesus eating a bit of fish....
Or does he? In fact yes, but in Galilee (21.9) where the risen Jesus is related to eating a fish dinner. Of course in a totally different setting and story. I might also mention that this also involved a miraculous haul of fish which Luke places at the calling of the disciples. So the explanation is plausible as what I call a 'floating story': a claim going round later, to the effect that Jesus appeared and proved that he was no ringer and no ghost by showing his new incorruptible wounds and eating some fish.

Evidence, I would say, of stories being concocted to counter the claims that someone who looked like Jesus pretended to be him, and also making him solid, not the spirit Jesus that I say is what the apostles and Paul believed had risen. So Luke and John fitted these stories into their gospels and, while it was obvious where Jesus should appear, where he ate the bit of fish was not so obvious, and neither was where the miracle haul of fish should go. Luke adds it onto the calling of the disciples where it contradicts glaringly with Mark and Matthew who don't have this at all, but John had to invent a story of the disciples going back to Galilee to carry on their fishing job, which totally contradicts Luke and pretty much Matthew, too.

These are just a couple of items in stories that are full of such contradictions and improbabilities, that it really answers that missing ending of Mark question. There never was one.

Another touchstone case in the hotly disputed 'not mentioned' tool. It is pretty much guaranteed that the apologist will say that because something isn't in the other gospels, doesn't mean that it is an invention. But in fact, it does. If you can show that it is impossible that the others could have known of it and NONE of the others mention it, then the case is made. (2) The touchstone here is the transfiguration. It is inconceivable that John knew of this but said only that Jesus went into the hills because the people (the 5,000 he had fed) wanted to take him by force to make him a king. That point made, the haul of fish in Luke is obviously in contradiction with Mark and Matthew and so is his declaration in Nazareth and attempted assassination. No mention in Mark or Matthew even though all three have the 'is this not the carpenters' son?' (3) rejection at Nazareth quote-passage in both - but in different locations.

Another touchstone is the prophecy -fiddling. I love this because we so often get this '350 prophecies fulfilled!" claim. In Matthew and Acts 1 we get the accounts of the death of Judas, linked with bits of prophecy. To save space I won't post them here but just look up the OT originals and see how horribly they had to be mangled in order to make them into 'prophecy'. This is so much a touchstone tool that I could predict that James quoting Amos at the council of Jerusalem (Acts) would be mangled to make it a prophecy. And it was.

Thus we apply it to all the other prophecies, the virgin shall bear a son, the two donkeys, the Rachel weeping, the 'look on him who they pierced'. And the practice began with Paul misusing OT quotes to support his arguments in Romans. It has been noticed (like the contradictions) that the prophecies are mistranslated or misunderstood, but I seem to be the only one that takes it a bit further. It is not just that they are wrong even if they happen to fit Jesus, but the Judas mangling shows that the Jesus story was written to fit the supposed "prophecy".

Oh..almost forgot. The 'touchstone' of text amendment. That Luke blatantly rewrites the angel's message at the tomb so that his disciples don't have to go to Galilee lays the case for other alterations, like Matthew having a centurion coming personally to ask Jesus to cure his servant whereas Luke sees a problem in communication so he ha a bunch of jews go along to take his message. The rewrite is clear and we can see why. It is one of those cases where an inventive apologist can imply that the centurion personally approached Jesus through a bunch of Jews that he omits to mention. This is highly dubious in itself and since we have a touchstone example of text fiddling, there is no good reason (faith is a bad one) to suppose anything other than text amendment. Luke again alters the centurion saying 'This was the son of god' since he knows that this christian concept would be unknown to a centurion, so he alters it to the rather weaker 'surely this man was innocent'.

Interestingly, Mark ha some examples of amendment which a poster here (sorry can't recall which genius it was) pointed out 1.20 where Mark adds that there were hired servants. This was a puzzle to me decades ago because I went along with the general view of Authority that Mark was the first synoptic Gospel. So why would Matthew and Luke have left that out? It was later that I sorted another problem - Mark getting confused about where Bethsaida was - and realized that Mark had also to be based on an original and could not be the original itself. Though it is close (4) Eventually with the help of this brilliant poster, I realized that Mark had also added his own amendments - notably the bit about Pilate asking whether Jesus was already dead.

Of course apologists could point to this as proof of eyewitness testimony, but once that has been proved untenable, then text amending to get over problems is the explanation. In these cases Mark sees a problem (just as Luke and Matthew do in places where they amend) and makes his addition to the text.

There are hundreds of these which simply pile up examples of what any reasonable person must see is the 'touchstone' case. There is the evidence of a common synoptic text, the evidence that the most famous parables are Luke's invention, as are John's sermons must be his inventions. The agenda of Jew bashing and praising up the faith of Gentiles. Like I say, when you see it, it is so obviously so that I cannot understand why none of the other authorities seems to have twigged.

You can see why I post in Christianity. I love it here.

(1) which pretty much adds another nail to the coffin of John's spear -thrust in addition to not a word of it the synoptics and, when you think of it, that takes the 'fifth gospel' shroud down the plughole with it.

(2) rather like transitional fossils. If you can prove that one is transitional, that really proves the case for the others.

(3) variously amended, so nobody try to score some kind of point out of one of the others said 'Joseph's son'. All that proves is that they amended the text to suit themselves.

(4) aside from common material with Matthew but not appearing in Luke. This represents 'Q' type material that I call 'M'

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-21-2015 at 11:12 AM.. Reason: the usual much -neeeded tidy -up.
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:22 AM
 
339 posts, read 195,021 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
That is why there are 'touchstone cases' as I call them. The Nativities contradict utterly simply on the basis of where Joseph and Mary came from and where they went. There is a sort of argument for a prior census in the time of Herod and while that is actually very unlikely, one can't prove that it did not happen. Though it comes close, since Joseph apparently getting his brown envelope to report to his 'Own city' was something of a routine matter - but Josephus doesn't even hint of it, when a census called by Herod ought to have been a matter of importance to him.
When did the Luke 2 census occur?
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 453,859 times
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Mike 555 posted:

Once again, No, Arequipa. I have specifically stated that the resurrection event is a Pre-Pauline tradition that goes back to the very beginning of the Church-Age, long before the Gospels were ever written. One need not appeal to the Gospels for evidence of the resurrection of Jesus.

RESPONSE:

Please present your evidence (not just opinion) or we can dismiss your claim as an assertion without evidence.
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:23 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,717,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, Arequipa, I did not. Expatca in post #61 was the one who asked you for proof that Matthew did not write the Gospel. Not me.




Once again, No, Arequipa. I have specifically stated that the resurrection event is a Pre-Pauline tradition that goes back to the very beginning of the Church-Age, long before the Gospels were ever written. One need not appeal to the Gospels for evidence of the resurrection of Jesus.

The variations in how the resurrection and post resurrection events are told in the different Gospels has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that the stories about the resurrection of Jesus were being orally circulated from the day that He rose from the grave. Appeals to alleged contradictions in the Gospels do not negate that fact.



Need I remind you again that most scholars, whether they be Christian or secular, who study the subject believe not only that Jesus was crucified, but that the tomb was empty, and that the early disciples of Jesus believed that they saw the risen Jesus. The question then becomes, What is the best explanation for the empty tomb?




The mass hallucination theory is simply one of several attempts by skeptics to provide a naturalistic explanation for the disciples belief that they saw the risen Christ. But it doesn't hold up. For one thing, Jesus appeared on a number of different occasions under various circumstances, sometimes to all eleven of the apostles, sometimes to just some of them. Thomas didn't even believe the other apostles that Jesus had appeared to them and declared that he would not believe unless Jesus appeared to him and he put his hand in Jesus' side.

And later, when Paul encountered the risen Jesus on the Damascus road it wasn't because he desperately wanted to see Jesus. As well, the men who were with Paul, while not seeing Jesus, did see a light and hear a sound. And so Paul did not hallucinate.




Then by not being willing to discuss your alleged reasons, you simply make an empty assertion.




So your evidence that Jesus' body was stolen by the disciples (apart from your secret evidence which you don't want to discuss) is a story that you don't even believe because Matthew is the only one to report it.



Again, one need not even appeal to the Gospels since stories of Jesus' resurrection were circulating orally right from the very beginning of the Church, long before the Gospels were even written. As has been pointed out, scholars recognize that what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 is a pre-Pauline tradition. What that means is that Paul received the information from others, probably from Peter and James when he visited them three years after his conversion. This means that even before Peter and James relayed this information to Paul the stories of Jesus' resurrection were being told. And so, stories of the empty tomb and of Jesus' resurrection were not stories invented when the Gospels were written.


No. The variations in the Gospels are not the issue. The issue is that the resurrection of Jesus is not dependent on the Gospel accounts since the stories of Jesus' resurrection existed at the beginning of the church.

Of course there are historians who do not believe that Jesus' resurrection was historical. There is rarely if ever going to be one hundred percent consensus on anything. But the majority of scholars, whether they be Christian or secular, who study the subject accept as historical the existence of Jesus, the fact that He was crucified, and the empty tomb. And even many secular scholars recognize that the early disciples believed that they saw the risen Jesus although these secular scholars have to appeal to naturalistic explanations.

And so, as previously stated, the question is what is the best explanation for the empty tomb, as well as for the disciples belief that they saw the risen Christ. And naturalistic explanations fall short.
I have just done a Long post so I will say that I will reply. You require me to explain the removal of the body. Ok but that will have to be pretty long, too as anything but a sound case will be dismissed by you as some conspiracy theory.

And if you trouble to read my last post you will certainly see that what you are pleased to water down as 'variations' are the issue. and the appeal to early tradition of resurrection is evasion on your part. The evidence indicates that this resurrection was a spiritual one and the bodily resurrection came later. As I showed, the need for a solid walking risen Jesus resulted in contradictory gospel stories.

At least you concede that not all historians buy the historical resurrection, so now you try to buy the argument with a majority vote. Give that one up and look at the the evidence itself. And what is in the gospels is evidence only of what is in the gospels, not of what actually happened.


Oh, and sorry if I miisremembered who asked me what. I am answering all points that seem needed no matter who asked me or even if nobody did. because this isn't about convincing any one person but in making the case.
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:29 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,717,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StanJP View Post
The ENTIRE Bible is reliable IMO(2 Tim 3:16), so you have to do better than denial. Jesus said what He said in John 20:27, and Luke 11:1 is one disciple, NOT an apostle, asking Jesus a question.
Matthew and John used the term "the twelve", to identify the Apostles. Mark and Luke use the word Apostle. Everywhere else when disciple is used, it refers to the 72 men (Luke 10:1 ) that followed him regularly as well. Jesus had hundreds if not thousands of disciples throughout His ministry.
The Bible is demonstrably NOT reliable in evidential demonstration, not my HO so it is YOU who have to do better than denial. And Luke refers to the 11 (Greek 'hendeka' ) in 24 33. which means all of them less Judas. You are going to need better knowledge of your own Bible is you are going to get involved in this discussion.
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:31 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,966,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The Bible is demonstrably NOT reliable in evidential demonstration, not my HO so it is YOU who have to do better than denial. And Luke refers to the 11 in 24 33. which means all of them less Judas. You are going to need better knowledge of your own Bible is you are going to get involved in this discussion.
Please give the references for 11 in 24 33.
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:34 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,966,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The evidence indicates that this resurrection was a spiritual one and the bodily resurrection came later. As I showed, the need for a solid walking risen Jesus resulted in contradictory gospel stories.
That is just not true.

Quote:
At least you concede that not all historians buy the historical resurrection,
I didn't know we needed any historians to "buy" the resurrection of Christ for it to be true.
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:34 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,717,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Please give the references for 11 in 24 33.
See above post. Luke refers to the number there, not "The Terwelve-ah" like the name of a a rock groop. How nice to see you here old chum. Put on a pair of mauleys and join in.
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