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I'm going from memory right now because I am being too lazy.
In a couple of places in the New Testament, Jesus speaks to an audience using parables. On one occasion where he speaks in that "God speaks in mysterious ways" style, his audience is totally confused as to what he is talking about. Even his Disciples are confused and (if I recall) he has to explain the meaning of the parable to them. Before doing so, he quotes [supposedly] quotes a scripture from the book of Isaiah which states that the people have ears and cannot hear, eyes but cannot see LEST they understand clearly and I guess, become saved? Why should they not understand and be saved? To make matters even more perplexing, he tells his Disciples that while the other poor bastards are completely lost as to what he is talking about (lest they be saved), to them was granted the privilege to "get it." Why is one group purposely left in the dark while another group is given enlightenment? Is this fair? What if you or I are included in the group that's NOT supposed to "get it" and that we are told it is done on purpose?
Add to that another scripture in the Gospel of John. I am reminded of it because another person posted the scripture from that same book where Jesus says his sheep hears and knows his voice. This is what prompted this thread. In the same book, Jesus says (allegedly) that no one can come to him unless the father draws him [to Jesus]. What if the father chooses NOT to draw you? Can that person be blamed for his mental state of rejection toward this god?
Last edited by Condemned; 12-13-2008 at 09:04 PM..
I'm going from memory right now because I am being too lazy.
In a couple of places in the New Testament, Jesus speaks to an audience using parables. On one occasion where he speaks in that "God speaks in mysterious ways" style, his audience is totally confused as to what he is talking about. Even his Disciples are confused and........
that no one can come to him unless the father draws him [to Jesus]. What if the father chooses NOT to draw you? Can that person be blamed for his mental state of rejection toward this god?
You are a persistent brother but I appreciate the fact that you debate in a civil manner.
OK, it's getting late so I am a lil tired, bear with me.
You are speaking of predestination, I am one person who happens to believe in it yet there are others who don't. If predestination does exist then it is not unfair. If I randomly picked 10 people in a crowd and gave 5 dollars each, could the rest of the crowd say, that I was being unfair? of course not because you nor the people I gave deserved the 5 dollars just the same way we don't deserve anything either except hell because we broke God's Law. God shows His love and mercy by giving us His gift of salvation even when we don't deserve it.
The bible says, that our minds are at war with God. We all hate God. I personally believe if it was not for predestination the word of God would die among us humans because we don't want to hear it. The problem is your "benefactor". God does love us but predestination is not for "the chosen" but for Him and His glory so that His word will spread, so that He will be praised and worshipped by the ones predestined and they will spread the gospel to everyone such as yourself in His name.
The bible is clear that God's will is for EVERYONE to be saved, I believe everyone hears and is suseptible to the gospel, it's just that the predestined ones are even MORE suseptible to God's word. (Christianity is spreading like crazy in the Middle East and China) You were given free will, you have the choice to choose Him or not.
Quote:
Jesus says (allegedly) that no one can come to him unless the father draws him [to Jesus]. What if the father chooses NOT to draw you?
Well then He goes against His own words and will which means He is sinning and He is not God. You see Jesus was saying, you have no say, you cannot do anything to be saved or draw yourself to Him, It's all God so that He and He alone receives the glory for saving you. Faith is a gift given to us by God. God draws EVERYONE to Him, He is working on everyone as we speak including you. The bible says there will none with excuse on judgment day.
You know the name of Jesus Christ is powerful. Please soften your heart and call out to Him, you remember what that feeling was like. He is willing, He is calling you. I beg of you to answer Him.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-13-2008 at 10:28 PM..
You are a persistent brother but I appreciate the fact that you debate in a civil manner.
OK, it's getting late so I am a lil tired, bear with me.
You are speaking of predestination, I am one person who happens to believe in it yet there are others who don't. If predestination does exist then it is not unfair. If I randomly picked 10 people in a crowd and gave 5 dollars each, could the rest of the crowd say, that I was being unfair? of course not because you nor the people I gave deserved the 5 dollars just the same way we don't deserve anything either except hell because we broke God's Law. God shows His love and mercy by giving us His gift of salvation even when we don't deserve it.
The bible says, that our minds are at war with God. We all hate God. I personally believe if it was not for predestination the word of God would die among us humans because we don't want to hear it. The problem is your "benefactor". God does love us but predestination is not for "the chosen" but for Him and His glory so that His word will spread, so that He will be praised and worshipped by the ones predestined and they will spread the gospel to everyone such as yourself in His name.
The bible is clear that God's will is for EVERYONE to be saved, I believe everyone hears and is suseptible to the gospel, it's just that the predestined ones are even MORE suseptible to God's word. (Christianity is spreading like crazy in the Middle East and China) You were given free will, you have the choice to choose Him or not.
Well then He goes against His own words and will which means He is sinning and He is not God. You see Jesus was saying, you have no say, you cannot do anything to be saved or draw yourself to Him, It's all God so that He and He alone receives the glory for saving you. Faith is a gift given to us by God. God draws EVERYONE to Him, He is working on everyone as we speak including you. The bible says there will none with excuse on judgment day.
You know the name of Jesus Christ is powerful. Please soften your heart and call out to Him, you remember what that feeling was like. He is willing, He is calling you. I beg of you to answer Him.
I am glad you notice that. I have no other way but to do it like that. I might not agree with an opinion. I may not agree with a faith. I may even call a spade a spade, but I will NEVER disrespect a person even in this anonymous world called the internet even if this was not heavily conservative City-Data.
Anyway, thank you for your reply. You have me totally lost on the first explanation but your second response was plausible.
As for what you placed in bold, thank you, but that's not going to happen. I've since seen the light and the error of me former ways. Old fantasies have passed away and behold lots of things have become new.
While not in the New Testament, another are of scripture came to mind but it's in the Old Testament and a familiar yet interesting story it is.
David has a closet full of sins (which he suffers for) but in the end, is called a man after God's own heart and sitting pretty lofty in biblical lore. Saul, on the other hand, is discarded as a lowly bum who screwed up big time. Two of his crimes:
1. Making a rash decision to offer a sacrifice, an act reserved for a priest, because the priest showed up late and his army had ideas of deserting him fearing going into battle without the blessing of a prophet/priest. Not only that, the enemy was advancing. He is scolded for doing what just about any of us would have done.
2. He failed to completely massacre a whole race of people as he was commanded to do.
While people often point to his punishment as one where God rejects him, rejects his rule and turns his kingdom over to another person in his own court, little attention is paid to the fact that the superstitious writer mentions that God sent and evil spirit to torment Saul and send the man crazy. God torments people with evil spirits? God assists in the destruction of man?
Those aren't the only 2 problems Saul had. The crux that even though David screwed up quite a few times (adulterer, murder by proxy, etc.) it was his heart and his attitude that earned him the epithet, Man After God's Own Heart. David repented of his sins and truly wanted to please the Lord, Saul just wanted power and pleasure. God examines our hearts and our motivations as well as our actions.
I am glad you notice that. I have no other way but to do it like that. I might not agree with an opinion. I may not agree with a faith. I may even call a spade a spade, but I will NEVER disrespect a person even in this anonymous world called the internet even if this was not heavily conservative City-Data.
Anyway, thank you for your reply. You have me totally lost on the first explanation but your second response was plausible.
As for what you placed in bold, thank you, but that's not going to happen. I've since seen the light and the error of me former ways. Old fantasies have passed away and behold lots of things have become new.
You want to pick and choose what you want to believe and discard the rest. And then blame God for not "drawing" you? You want to "wrap" your mind around what you can conceive and do away with what you won't believe. And then claim He's an "unfair" God?
As for what was placed in bold, according to you, your mind's already made up!! So what do you really want? New fantasies and new light? You're not going to get that from the majority of believers on here, sorry to burst your bubble. The God that we speak of, is the same God you turn away from. Same One!! Past, present and future. No new fantasies here.
You want fantasies, Harry Potter might be a good place to start, but if you want truths, sound biblical truths, the bible: Biblical Instructions Before Leaving Earth is a far better choice. Choose wisely!!
Those aren't the only 2 problems Saul had. The crux that even though David screwed up quite a few times (adulterer, murder by proxy, etc.) it was his heart and his attitude that earned him the epithet, Man After God's Own Heart. David repented of his sins and truly wanted to please the Lord, Saul just wanted power and pleasure. God examines our hearts and our motivations as well as our actions.
Where does it say Saul only wanted power and pleasure, Amy? If you recall, Saul wanted nothing to do with the throne. Yes, as king he wanted the adulation of his people because, as with today, once one of your subjects begins to gain the respect of the people, they become a threat because after a while, you can't do anything right in their eyes. Ask George Bush. With the Amalekite situation, Saul did spare the Amalekite king for trophy purposes, a common act in those days.
By biblical standards, I'm not saying Saul was a saint or met the heart qualifications. He surely was flawed, but why does God assist in destroying the man? How would anyone like to know that the reason why uncle Billy Bob is out of his mind is because God sent an evil spirit to torment him and make him act insane? Is this the way God brought people to their senses back then?
You want to pick and choose what you want to believe and discard the rest. And then blame God for not "drawing" you? You want to "wrap" your mind around what you can conceive and do away with what you won't believe. And then claim He's an "unfair" God?
As for what was placed in bold, according to you, your mind's already made up!! So what do you really want? New fantasies and new light? You're not going to get that from the majority of believers on here, sorry to burst your bubble. The God that we speak of, is the same God you turn away from. Same One!! Past, present and future. No new fantasies here.
You want fantasies, Harry Potter might be a good place to start, but if you want truths, sound biblical truths, the bible: Biblical Instructions Before Leaving Earth is a far better choice. Choose wisely!!
If people were telling me Harry Potter was all fact, then I might be on a forum about Harry Potter with lots of questions too.
Biblical truth according to whom???
My mind is made up about European colonization that has torn up this entire planet but I still went to watch the movie The End of Poverty and still had and have things to say about it. My kids hate me for it. Bad habit of mine. Forgive me, I just love to stir the mind to thinking by asking those difficult questions. I won't disrespect you by doing, Betsy, but beliefs/concepts/positions are fair game to be questioned on this OPEN forum.
While not in the New Testament, another are of scripture came to mind but it's in the Old Testament and a familiar yet interesting story it is.
David has a closet full of sins (which he suffers for) but in the end, is called a man after God's own heart and sitting pretty lofty in biblical lore. Saul, on the other hand, is discarded as a lowly bum who screwed up big time. Two of his crimes:
1. Making a rash decision to offer a sacrifice, an act reserved for a priest, because the priest showed up late and his army had ideas of deserting him fearing going into battle without the blessing of a prophet/priest. Not only that, the enemy was advancing. He is scolded for doing what just about any of us would have done.
2. He failed to completely massacre a whole race of people as he was commanded to do.
While people often point to his punishment as one where God rejects him, rejects his rule and turns his kingdom over to another person in his own court, little attention is paid to the fact that the superstitious writer mentions that God sent and evil spirit to torment Saul and send the man crazy. God torments people with evil spirits? God assists in the destruction of man?
That's easy. Read the entire book of Psalm and you will no why. Nobody I mean nobody grobbled like King David could. Anytime I have felt bad or known that I disappointed my God I would read the book of David.
I am glad you notice that. I have no other way but to do it like that. I might not agree with an opinion. I may not agree with a faith. I may even call a spade a spade, but I will NEVER disrespect a person even in this anonymous world called the internet even if this was not heavily conservative City-Data.
Anyway, thank you for your reply. You have me totally lost on the first explanation but your second response was plausible.
As for what you placed in bold, thank you, but that's not going to happen. I've since seen the light and the error of me former ways. Old fantasies have passed away and behold lots of things have become new.
You mean the fact you came from monkey's cousin and that you as a black man (If I recall correctly) are a lower evolved specie? Sounds like European Imperialist evolution to me to call you a proud black man, the "missing link"
God calls you His child, His beloved.
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You have your answer!!
