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Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
[1]Not only is that concept absent from the Bible, [2] but there is zero evidence of any of the apostles hearing confessions, or making them to a priest "in the place of the Lord". [3]Do you not recognize that the idea of a man "taking the place of the Lord" is rather blasphemous to a non-Catholic?
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OK, so dear friend have you actually read the entire bible [I'll make this a rhetorical question]
My dear friend for the sake of being able to follow along; because the points you make; while incorrect, are nevertheless well thought out from a secular perspective, and I really appreciate you're input, I have taken the liberty of numbering you're points so that we can address and discuss them. Thank you!
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[1]"Not only is that concept absent from the Bible:"
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"because they covered the collective sins of the people as a nation. Remember, no animal was perfect enough to remove sin. The blood of an animal could only cover sin (Yom Kippur means "Day of Covering".
From: agapebiblestudy.com
Lev.5: 13 “
Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." …
Lev.6:7 “
and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD,
and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."
So that is an indicator of God using His Chosen priest {Aaron and his son} in the forgiveness of their sins from the OT which set up the
Sacred Tradition.
Exodus 28:1
Take unto thee also Aaron thy brother with his sons, from among the children of Israel, that they may minister to me in the priest' s office: Aaron, Nadab, and Abiu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
John 20: 19-23 "[19] Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. [20] And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. [
21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22]
When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
I find it difficult to believe that Jesus who is OUR God, could have used language any more clear and precise than this. And so you don't think I'm fudging here; I am sharing also verse 23 from your
King James Bible.
King James Version: John 20:23 "
Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained . And YES, by necessity Luther has to give a different understanding; DESPITE the clarity of the teaching:
Cf. As My heavely Father sent ME; NOW I also send YOU! [with God's power and authority!]. Doubt it?
Mt. 10:1-4 "[1]
And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these:
The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother,..."
So it is a Biblical founded teaching and practice.
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[2] but there is zero evidence of any of the apostles hearing confessions, or making them to a priest "in the place of the Lord".
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The error here is not completely your own. Protestants have in large part taught Sola Scriptura; which has to glaring misnomers.
1. Even the bible says that "NOT everything is in the bible"
John 20: 30-31
"[30]
Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. [31] But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."
John 21: 23-24 "This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25]
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."
Then there is the argument from pure logic:
Exegesis: The Bible was NOT completely written until the END of the 1st Century or the VERY early 2nd century: From this Historical fact we need to ask ourselves: "self: how was the early Catholic faith taught before the existence of "A bible" [even then it had not been collected as a complete book]? And the answer is by following the Traditions of their Jewish ancestors who used word of mouth and stories.
This has to be fact because
Mt. 28: 19-20 has Jesus commanding THEM [precisely and exclusively BTW] to: Cf. YOU! Go t the entire world and teach it all that I have commanded [that is taught and commanded] YOU!" ... [19] Going therefore,
teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20]
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world."
If they had waited for the bible to written AND fully assembled it would have been AFTER the deaths of ALL of the Apostles. ergo: NO Church & no faith & and no Christianity.
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[3]Do you not recognize that the idea of a man "taking the place of the Lord" is rather blasphemous to a non-Catholic?
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Not any more so than non-Catholics not correcting using the entire Bible [2nd Tim 3:16-27], or presuming some right for total and complete self-interpretation of it:
2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “Y
ou will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, t
hat no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
Which BTW explains why their are thousands of Protestant denominations and church's each teaching it's own understanding of the Bible and none of them being completely right.
Priest taking the "place of our Lord" dear friend s Our Lords's idea; not an invention of the Catholic Church. Protestant lack of understanding of:
One God
One Faith
One Chosen people [that Jesus calls "MY Church"
The Real Presence testified to by 5 different bible authors
Are all examples of our frustrations dear friend.
Mt. 10: 1-2
[1] "And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother....."
Mt. 16: 18-19
"[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon [YOU] this rock
I will build my church,: singular and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19]
And I will give to YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
John 17: 17-20
"[17]
Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. [
18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19]
And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20]
And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;"
1. Jesus here is praying in his human nature to his heavenly Father
2. Jesus is sending THEM with many of the same powers that the Father had sent jesus
3. Jesus gives Himself personally as warranty of their teaching ONLY His Truth on all Faith belief and Moral matters
4. Jesus ends this dialog by explaining exatly WHY he has chosen to do so
Mt. 28:18-20
[19] Going therefore, teach YOU! all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
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=thinkalot;41988586]Do you not recognize that Catholics don't think everything is in the bible? Since that is only a third of it you can't really use the bible in a argument with a Catholic
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PLEASE. PLEASE feel absoutely at home in using the bible with ME, this Catholic
BUT only if we use the entire BIBLE.
And you're right the bible doesn't specify the Apostles Baptism [Jn 3:5], or their confessing to each other
As Martyrs they were Baptized in Blood: And we already shared that not everything is IN the Bible. KEEP in mind that what is in the Bible is FOR OUR spiritual benefit; not for the history of its authors.
Matthew 19:29
And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name' s sake,
shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.
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You say there is no evidence about the apostles hearing confession. Are you talking no evidence in scripture or no evidence of word of mouth through the ages? Just as everything Jesus did is not recorded everything the apostles did is also not recorded. Many things were passed down verbally and never written until centuries later and the fact that they were not included in the bible doesn't matter to Catholics since again the bible is only one third with tradition and magisterial teaching being the other two thirds.
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God Bless you my friend!
Patrick
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