Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I fail to understand how the posts I've made in this thread would bring you
to that conclusion regarding my assertions or knowledge base.
RESPONSE:
Your post # 41 reads:
"Christianity was never a "Jewish sect", ever."
RESPONSE:
"THE BOOK OF ACTS" "The Way Which They Call A Sect (24:14)"
Paul was regarded as the ringleader of a sect called Nazorenes.
Isn't there a difference between a Jewish sect and a Christian sect ?
So, first of all, those who comprised Christianity were all of Jewish descent. They became Christians - Acts 11:26
Previously Paul lived as a ' Pharisee ' after their most strictest ' sect ' of that Jewish Pharisee religion - Acts 26:5,28
Those against Christianity - Acts 24: 1-5 - referred to Paul as a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.
Those of the ' sect ' of the high priest ' the Sadducees ' - Acts 5:17 - were against Christians.
That ' sect ' ( meaning Christians ) through their preaching were spoken against - Acts 28:22-23,31
>>Isn't there a difference between a Jewish sect and a Christian sect ?<<
RESPONSE:
Not fundamentally like the Pharisees and Sadducees both Jewish, or like the Zealots, Essenes, or followers of the Way or Nazareens or Ebionites.
>>So, first of all, those who comprised Christianity were all of Jewish descent. They became Christians - Acts 11:26<<
No. some were Gentiles. The interesting problem arose when they wanted to become Christian without becoming Jewish first. This was worked out at the first council of Jerusalem. As long as they followed the Noahtide law, they couldandf did.
>>Previously Paul lived as a ' Pharisee ' after their most strictest ' sect ' of that Jewish Pharisee religion - Acts 26:5,28<<
Paul claimed to have been a Pharisee, but, curiously he became and agent of the Sadduce High Priest who were supported by the Romans. Paul himself was a Roman citizen.
Pharisees Sadducees Essenes Herodians Zealots Ebionites, and Nazarenes were all Jewish sects.
According to the book of Acts, which comes late in the 1st century, the followers of Jesus were called, or perhaps called themselves, “the Way” (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 24:14, 22).
“There is, however, a reference in the book of Acts to a Hebrew name for the Jesus movement that might have well been its earliest formal appellation. Paul, on trial before the Roman governer Felix, is referred to as being “the ring leader of the sect of the Nazarenes” (Acts 24:5). Whether this term was used by “outsiders” to label the group, or within the movement itself, is difficult to know. Associated with the term “Nazarenes” is a second Hebrew designation, namely Ebionites, that was also apparently used for the earliest mostly-Jewish followers of Jesus.”
Returning to the topic of this thread, when and by whom was it first written that Jesus had been raised from the dead? When was it first reported that he had ascended into heaven?
2, The first written report we have about Jesus' resurrection (which was claimed to have happened three days after Jesus' death) is found in Paul's 1 Corinthians 15 written ca 55 AD to people living 817 miles away from Jerusalem about 25 years after the event it described. Paul was not a witness, and in fact didn't undergo his conversion until three or four years after the crucifixion.
3. If such an amazing event had occurred and there were witnesses, is it credible that none of these (or any of the people they told about it) wrote anything prior to Paul's epistle?
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 11-28-2015 at 07:02 AM..
Reason: typo
>>Previously Paul lived as a ' Pharisee ' after their most strictest ' sect ' of that Jewish Pharisee religion - Acts 26:5,28<<
Paul claimed to have been a Pharisee, but, curiously he became and agent of the Sadduce High Priest who were supported by the Romans. Paul himself was a Roman citizen.
Pharisees Sadducees Essenes Herodians Zealots Ebionites, and Nazarenes were all Jewish sects.
IMO as taught in the Bible the "Sadducees" did not believe in a resurrection as presented below
Matthew 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
Consequently, why do you say Paul was was/is an adamant supporter of the resurrection; (that happens to be the main difference between the Pharisees who support the resurrection versus the Sadducees who do not support the resurrection) became an agent of the Sadducees?
Returning to the topic of this thread, when and by whom was it first written that Jesus had been raised from the dead? When was it first reported that he had ascended into heaven?
First of all, there were physical resurrections mentioned in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Everyone Jesus resurrected he resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth. None to heaven.
That was a small sample preview, or coming attraction, of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth.
On the other hand, Jesus was resurrected back in his spirit body which he had before God sent Jesus to earth.
Matthew chapter 28 wrote first about Jesus being resurrected.
Mark 16:6 mentions Jesus as risen. ( side note: Mark 16 ends at verse 8, the rest are spurious verses )
John chapter 20 writes about Jesus being resurrected.
Luke chapter 24 writes about the resurrected Jesus.
Luke also wrote at Acts 2:24; 3:15; 5:30; 13:30,37 that God raised Jesus from the dead.
So, the resurrected Jesus remained in the vicinity of the earth for 40 days before ascending to heaven - Acts 1:9-10
Later Paul writes at Romans 10:9 and Colossians 2:12 B about the resurrected Jesus.
First of all, there were physical resurrections mentioned in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Everyone Jesus resurrected he resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth. None to heaven.
That was a small sample preview, or coming attraction, of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth.
On the other hand, Jesus was resurrected back in his spirit body which he had before God sent Jesus to earth.
Matthew chapter 28 wrote first about Jesus being resurrected.
Mark 16:6 mentions Jesus as risen. ( side note: Mark 16 ends at verse 8, the rest are spurious verses )
John chapter 20 writes about Jesus being resurrected.
Luke chapter 24 writes about the resurrected Jesus.
Luke also wrote at Acts 2:24; 3:15; 5:30; 13:30,37 that God raised Jesus from the dead.
So, the resurrected Jesus remained in the vicinity of the earth for 40 days before ascending to heaven - Acts 1:9-10
Later Paul writes at Romans 10:9 and Colossians 2:12 B about the resurrected Jesus.
RESPONSE:
No. Matthew was not the first to report Jesus' Resurrection (and ascencion). Matthew's gospel was written about 80 AD, while Paul's claim of a Resurrection was in 1 Cor 15, written about 55 AD.
Paul says nothing about an ascension. Luke, also writing about 80 AD has Jesus ascending from Bethany on the same day he rose from the dead. Yet, in Acts of the Apostles, Luke has Jesus ascending 40 days after the Resurrection from Mt. Olivet.
The original Gospel of Mark, written about 70 AD (the shorter ending) does not have Jesus ascending into heaven. In the early second century a "longer ending of Mark" was added which has an ascension.
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 11-28-2015 at 02:13 PM..
Reason: addition
Aristotle's Child, you're too hung up on the supposed dating of the scriptures
that we have extant. The scriptures report events that occurred from John
the Baptist up to and including Paul's journeys and the end of the Apostolic
age at the turn of the 1st century.
You should place an unhistorical standard on Christian writings from 2 thousand
years ago - a standard that is not placed on other writings.
Anyway, Christ's reason for coming was not to create a "Jewish sect".
A great number of the earliest Christians were not "Jewish" by blood.
My final post on this matter. Bye.
Aristotle's Child, you're too hung up on the supposed dating of the scriptures
that we have extant. The scriptures report events that occurred from John
the Baptist up to and including Paul's journeys and the end of the Apostolic
age at the turn of the 1st century.
You should place an unhistorical standard on Christian writings from 2 thousand
years ago - a standard that is not placed on other writings.
Anyway, Christ's reason for coming was not to create a "Jewish sect". A great number of the earliest Christians were not "Jewish" by blood.
My final post on this matter. Bye.
RESPONSE:
You are evidencing that you lack knowledge of early Church History.
"The church started off in Jerusalem, exclusively among the Jews.
Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost was entirely Jewish, quoting the prophets and the Psalmist David, and would have meant nothing to any Gentiles standing around, if there were any. The 3000 people who were saved that day would have been all Jewish. (Acts 2:1-41). They met regularly in the Temple, where Gentiles were excluded (Acts 2:46). The nearest the Gentiles could get was the Court of the Gentiles that surrounded the Temple, but no Gentiles appeared on the scene until at least five years later in Antioch.
And common sense dictates that the authenticity of a writing must be established before it can be accepted as historical rather than simply legend or fiction.
To become Christians nonJews had to follow the Jewish Noahtide law for those who were not crrcumicised but could be saved as believers anyway. Read Acts chapter 15 and James' ruling on this matter.
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 11-28-2015 at 06:48 PM..
Reason: typo
To become Christians nonJews had to follow the Jewish Noahtide law for those who were not crrcumicised but could be saved as believers anyway. Read Acts chapter 15 and James' ruling on this matter.
That's not exactly accurate...To become Christian one had to convert to Judaism, because that is what it was, a Jewish sect...Remember the Olive Tree parable?...I doubt that James would have ruled otherwise, I mean, they were right there with Jesus and would therefore known better and not have had Gentiles convert to Judaism in the first place if it were not the way...I find chapter 15 suspect for the very reason that Peter claimed status of Apostle to the Gentiles and Paul claimed that very status later on...So, who is it, Peter or Paul?...And that the Gentiles following the 7 Nochide Laws is strange because that has always been the way to Olam HaBa for the Gentile in Judaism, if they follow those laws then they are considered a righteous Gentile and have a portion in the World To Come...So, nothing new there...So, Paul coming along and changing everything, well, I find this suspect...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The claim that Jesus was raised from the dead
