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Old 02-09-2016, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,971 posts, read 47,800,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Interestingly, I've even heard the idea that Jesus was not even talking about God when when he said "fear him who can kill the body and the soul in Gehenna" given the context, but rather the apostate Hebrews, a.k.a Pharisee who are so who are so against them that they would have no problem using the law to throw them into Gehenna like criminals just as their "ancestors" did throw sacrifice their children in Gehenna. Plus, understanding it this way also resolves another potential contradiction as follows.
It really does not make any sense to think it means Pharisees destroying bodies and souls at a garbage dump, when it specifically said "do not fear those who can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul".
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Old 02-09-2016, 12:46 PM
 
1,511 posts, read 1,387,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It really does not make any sense to think it means Pharisees destroying bodies and souls at a garbage dump, when it specifically said "do not fear those who can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul".
Thats one of the things I'm still researching about this argument. As I think Eusebius mentioned, that word for Soul can have a few different meanings. Theres alot more to this argument but I'm not sure I'm allowed to post links to other forums and I feel weird about posting a bigger quote from there . Maybe if I have more time later I'll add more detail.
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Old 02-09-2016, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,971 posts, read 47,800,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Thats one of the things I'm still researching about this argument. As I think Eusebius mentioned, that word for Soul can have a few different meanings.
He mentioned Soul=Life, which means when the body dies, the soul goes too, but the verse says otherwise. It says people can kill the body, but not the soul.
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Old 02-09-2016, 02:46 PM
 
6,366 posts, read 2,937,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Here is the contest of the narrow way:

Matthew 7:12-14 then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you,
also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets. (13) Enter through the cramped gate, for
broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those
entering through it. (14) Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life,
and few are those who are finding it.

"Luke 13:23 The Lord avoids a direct answer to the question, and turns the questioner's thoughts upon
himself. It would seem that at this time, the wide gates into the kingdom had been closed, and access
could be had only through the private entrances, which are locked when evening comes. The
proclamation of the kingdom had opened the gates wide up to this time, and it was easy to enter by
repentance and baptism. But at this crisis the proclamation was withdrawn, hence many of those who
struggled could not enter. By no means should this parable be applied indiscriminately to the evangel,
either of the kingdom or of the grace of God. God's good news is never narrow or cramped. In the
tabernacle in the wilderness the gate, which opened into the court where the altar and laver were
stationed, was very wide, and the entrance into the holy place occupied the whole front side of the tent.
It could not have been wider. These were types of the way of God during the proclamation of the
kingdom. The evangel for today is wider still, for it embraces all nations and imposes no conditions.
Faith in God's word cannot be obtained by any struggle. Neither is there any reluctance on God's part,
but He is beseeching all men to be conciliated. This can be understood of those only who have neglected
to enter while the wide gates of the kingdom evangel were open, and now seek an entrance after the
proclamation has been closed. (concordant Commentary).

Here is a short write-up on Matthew 7:13:

THE CRAMPED GATE AND NARROW WAY

"HOW earnestly did we once exhort sinners to leave the broad way which leads to destruction, for the
narrow path that leads to life (Matt.7:13,14)! But, thank God, we learned the great truth that we are in
Christ and share His life. How then could we be on a road that leads to life? I learned, moreover, that
the entrance into life was wide, not cramped. It was entered by grace, not by striving (Luke 13:24). The
narrow way was not the evangel but the law. That leads to life, for those who keep it, but, alas, of the
few who find it, none observe it. The precept given for life is for death (Rom.7:10).

"The word "strait" is no longer understood, hence it is translated cramped in the CONCORDANT
VERSION. In its other forms it means groan, distress. We westerners do not know what a narrow road
is. I lived on a narrow street. It was just wide enough so three automobiles could drive abreast. In the
East a street is not narrow if a single automobile can squeeze through. It is wide, extra wide. It is
narrow if pedestrians must go in single file. The word cramped means still more. It is so narrow that it
makes one groan to squeeze through. That is the normal experience of one under the law of Moses. But
the freedom we have in Christ is like the flight of a bird in the air. Not cramped, but spacious. Full of
life, not leading to life. Not groaning, but singing!

"The figure of the two ways was used by our Lord in proclaiming the evangel of the kingdom, before
His rejection by Israel, with the cross out of sight, long before Paul was given his evangel for the
nations, which is in force today. Yet even in that economy the gospel was not cramped. In the
tabernacle the entrance was very wide indeed. Our Lord's words were immediately preceded by the
basic law of the kingdom. "All, then, whatever you may be wanting that men should be doing to you,
thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets." This law is the cramped gate and
narrow way. Who can fulfill it? (A. E. K., Unsearchable Riches).



Everyone who knows Jesus, knows he brought a new covenant--even for the Israelites--it was Gods will, and Jesus knew Gods will 100%--so-NO- it does not mean the law.
Trust Jesus--not men who do not know him.
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Old 02-09-2016, 05:26 PM
 
1,511 posts, read 1,387,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
He mentioned Soul=Life, which means when the body dies, the soul goes too, but the verse says otherwise. It says people can kill the body, but not the soul.
I had a nice thorough post for this that took me a while but my wretched excuse for an internet browser crashed on me and I lost it so I'll summerize:

After further review, I'm still somewhat on the fence about what who Jesus was talking about in 10:28, but the poster in the other site's idea that he was talking about the Pharisee's is looking less plausable. His idea was that since Jesus said "beware" of "wolves" that would deliver them up to the Sanhedrin verses 16 and 17 and Flee those cities in verse 23, that Jesus was referring fearing to the Pharisees because of the history of Gehenna (Valley of Hinnon). However, this is questionable because based but the greek work for "beware" doesn't necessarily mean "fear" and this assumes that the passage is referring to two different groups leading out to verse 28 which is hard to tell based on the wording.

The other part of his argument is that in Luke 12:6-7 it seems to indicate that Jesus did not want us to fear God and to say we should in Matt 10:28 would be a contradiction...Based on the context of Luke 12:6-7 this seems a fairly questionable because he may be saying to not fear that God will take care of us rather than not to fear God himself. Its interesting to note that the Old Testament has like 20+ instances to say to fear God while the New Testament only has about 2 or so (one in arguably in Matt 10:28 and one in Luke 1:50 said by Mary).

Anyways, just for everyones interest, here is how Jews seem to view Gehenna and the afterlife:

Quote:
Gan Eden and Gehinnom

The place of spiritual reward for the
righteous is often referred to in Hebrew as Gan Eden (GAHN ehy-DEHN) (the Garden
of Eden). This is not the same place where Adam and Eve were; it is a place of
spiritual perfection. Specific descriptions of it vary widely from one source to
another. One source says that the peace that one feels when one experiences
Shabbat properly is merely one-sixtieth of the pleasure of the afterlife. Other
sources compare the bliss of the afterlife to the joy of sex or the warmth of a
sunny day. Ultimately, though, the living can no more understand the nature of
this place than the blind can understand color.

Only the very
righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of
punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM)
(in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She'ol or by other names. According to
one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a
demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created.
Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian
Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can
see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the
opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of
time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place
on Olam Ha-Ba.

Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of
this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ
on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is
utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues
to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.

This 12-month
limit is repeated in many places in the Talmud, and it is connected to the
mourning cycles and the recitation of Kaddish. See Life, Death and Mourning.

Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife
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Old 02-10-2016, 06:02 AM
 
Location: Oregon
802 posts, read 455,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
And commanded that it should be taught Is rejected by a huge portion of Christendom?.

Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. 1 Tim 4:9- 11

Paul was not toiling to get folk saved to heaven but for them to know that they are saved and in knowing it their experience would be heaven. Thy Kingdom come in me is heaven.
RESPONSE: But Paul didn't write either Timothy.

The Blackwell Companion to The New Testament by David E. Aune ISBN 1405108258 page 9

"While seven of the letters attributed to Paul are almost universally accepted as authentic (Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon), four are just as widely judged to be pseudepigraphical, i.e. written by unknown authors under Paul's name: Ephesians and the Pastorals (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus).

Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 02-10-2016 at 06:02 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-10-2016, 06:23 AM
 
Location: california
7,333 posts, read 6,961,580 times
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A wise man will take those things Jesus taught, with greater authority than any man .
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Old 02-10-2016, 06:59 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 16,017,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotle's Child View Post
RESPONSE: But Paul didn't write either Timothy.

The Blackwell Companion to The New Testament by David E. Aune ISBN 1405108258 page 9

"While seven of the letters attributed to Paul are almost universally accepted as authentic (Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon), four are just as widely judged to be pseudepigraphical, i.e. written by unknown authors under Paul's name: Ephesians and the Pastorals (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus).
The First Epistle to Timothy, the Second Epistle to Timothy, and the Epistle to Titus are often referred to as the Pastoral Epistles and are the most disputed of all the epistles ascribed to Paul.

Despite this, these epistles were accepted as genuine by many, perhaps most of the ante-Nicene Church Fathers. Some scholars have argued that the letters were certainly accepted as Pauline by the time of Irenaeus. They were also included in the Muratorian fragment.

Here is further proof Paul wrote the pastoral epistles: http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/11Ch..._2Timothy.aspx
Now you can believe and put your trust in the faithful saying and worthy of all welcome that "God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all (see 1 Tim.2:4-6).

Last edited by Eusebius; 02-10-2016 at 07:13 AM..
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:10 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 16,017,083 times
Reputation: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Everyone who knows Jesus, knows he brought a new covenant--even for the Israelites--it was Gods will, and Jesus knew Gods will 100%--so-NO- it does not mean the law.
Trust Jesus--not men who do not know him.
But that's just it, the men I listen to do know Him and I take exception to the accusation by you that they don't know Christ.

The new covenant was in His blood which took place after He shed His blood on the cross. Even after Christ died and many thousands of the Circumcision believe, there were tens of thousands of Jewish believers zealous for the law (Acts.21:20).

Also the new covenant is the law on steroids. The sermon on the mount is evidence of this. For instance Jesus said:

Matthew 5:27-28 You hear that it was declared, 'You shall not be committing adultery (28) Yet I am saying to you that every man looking at a woman to lust for her already commits adultery with her in his heart.

The sermon on the mount will be the Kingdom rules when Christ reigns in Israel.
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,971 posts, read 47,800,075 times
Reputation: 14806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
I had a nice thorough post for this that took me a while but my wretched excuse for an internet browser crashed on me and I lost it so I'll summerize:

After further review, I'm still somewhat on the fence about what who Jesus was talking about in 10:28, but the poster in the other site's idea that he was talking about the Pharisee's is looking less plausable. His idea was that since Jesus said "beware" of "wolves" that would deliver them up to the Sanhedrin verses 16 and 17 and Flee those cities in verse 23, that Jesus was referring fearing to the Pharisees because of the history of Gehenna (Valley of Hinnon). However, this is questionable because based but the greek work for "beware" doesn't necessarily mean "fear" and this assumes that the passage is referring to two different groups leading out to verse 28 which is hard to tell based on the wording.

The other part of his argument is that in Luke 12:6-7 it seems to indicate that Jesus did not want us to fear God and to say we should in Matt 10:28 would be a contradiction...Based on the context of Luke 12:6-7 this seems a fairly questionable because he may be saying to not fear that God will take care of us rather than not to fear God himself. Its interesting to note that the Old Testament has like 20+ instances to say to fear God while the New Testament only has about 2 or so (one in arguably in Matt 10:28 and one in Luke 1:50 said by Mary).

Anyways, just for everyones interest, here is how Jews seem to view Gehenna and the afterlife:
In short the verse says this: Honor the almighty God.

It does not say: be afraid of God, because else He might destroy you.
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