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That is correct that if it is not free then it is not free will. It is will but it is not free.
Humanity is the slave of Sin.
Why? Because humanity is flesh and our flesh has death operating in it and it is for that reason we sin.
I do not choose to accept your version of "free will." The version with all of the strings that are attached to it.
Are you saying UR does not result in everyone being saved
Poster "Tired of the Nonsense" said he did not want to be saved, but if UR is true, then he will be saved whether he wants it or not.
Do you think God is incapable of setting up the circumstances whereby he will want to be saved?
Saul/Paul wanted nothing to do with Christ and took part in the murder of Stephen and other Christians. Christ intercepted Saul who became Paul on the road to Damascus. Do you think Christ had to hold a sword to Saul's throat to go against Saul's will?
Do you think God is incapable of setting up the circumstances whereby he will want to be saved?
Saul/Paul wanted nothing to do with Christ and took part in the murder of Stephen and other Christians. Christ intercepted Saul who became Paul on the road to Damascus. Do you think Christ had to hold a sword to Saul's throat to go against Saul's will?
Paul was originally a rather virulent opponent of Christianity, which he considered to be a heresy. Then Paul took his famous trip to Damascus. According to Acts 9, while on the road to Damascus Paul became stricken. Acts specifically indicates that at one point Paul went three days without drinking. Whatever the cause, Paul was clearly severely dehydrated and therefore deathly ill. Three days without water is a critical condition, especially in dry desert like conditions. Severe dehydration commonly effects the eyesight, as the vitreous fluid in the eye thickens and sight is diminished, and causes the neurons in the brain to misfire from lack of fluid, inevitably resulting in hallucinations. Among other symptoms.
So, desperately sick and disoriented Paul had to be helped into the city by his traveling companions who then left him at the home of a CHRISTIAN MAN to be cared for. This is a significant point! Sick and delirious from dehydration, and while being tended to and prayed over by a CHRISTIAN MAN, Paul came to believe after his recovery that during his illness he had experienced a face to face visitation with the years dead Jesus. This experience proved to be life changing for Paul and after his recovery Paul became a confirmed Christian. Hardly a surprise, really, given the circumstances.
But we in the 21st century, in the light of reason and logic, are left to consider whether it is more reasonable to conclude that Paul, in his delirium, and while being tended to and prayed over by a Christian, hallucinated a vision of Jesus. Or, conversely, whether it is reasonable to conclude that it is more likely that Paul actually MET WITH AND CONVERSED WITH A DEAD MAN! I notice that which side of this question opinion tends to fall invariably has a very direct correlation to whether or not a person has been programmed from an early age to uncritically accept stories of miracles and flying reanimated corpses, and the like.
Paul was originally a rather virulent opponent of Christianity, which he considered to be a heresy. Then Paul took his famous trip to Damascus. According to Acts 9, while on the road to Damascus Paul became stricken. Acts specifically indicates that at one point Paul went three days without drinking.
What verse states he went 3 days without drinking?
Quote:
Whatever the cause, Paul was clearly severely dehydrated and therefore deathly ill. Three days without water is a critical condition, especially in dry desert like conditions. Severe dehydration commonly effects the eyesight, as the vitreous fluid in the eye thickens and sight is diminished, and causes the neurons in the brain to misfire from lack of fluid, inevitably resulting in hallucinations. Among other symptoms.
Assumptions on your part that Paul was severely dehydrated.
Quote:
So, desperately sick and disoriented Paul had to be helped into the city by his traveling companions who then left him at the home of a CHRISTIAN MAN to be cared for. This is a significant point! Sick and delirious from dehydration, and while being tended to and prayed over by a CHRISTIAN MAN, Paul came to believe after his recovery that during his illness he had experienced a face to face visitation with the years dead Jesus. This experience proved to be life changing for Paul and after his recovery Paul became a confirmed Christian. Hardly a surprise, really, given the circumstances.
Jesus was alive when He met Paul on the Damascus road. Jesus wasn't dead.
Quote:
But we in the 21st century, in the light of reason and logic, are left to consider whether it is more reasonable to conclude that Paul, in his delirium, and while being tended to and prayed over by a Christian, hallucinated a vision of Jesus. Or, conversely, whether it is reasonable to conclude that it is more likely that Paul actually MET WITH AND CONVERSED WITH A DEAD MAN! I notice that which side of this question opinion tends to fall invariably has a very direct correlation to whether or not a person has been programmed from an early age to uncritically accept stories of miracles and flying reanimated corpses, and the like.
No, Paul actually MET WITH AND CONVERSED WITH THE RESURRECTED AND ALIVE JESUS CHRIST!
What verse states he went 3 days without drinking?
Assumptions on your part that Paul was severely dehydrated.
What verse states he went 3 days without drinking?
No, Paul actually MET WITH AND CONVERSED WITH THE RESURRECTED AND ALIVE JESUS CHRIST!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Assumptions on your part that Paul was severely dehydrated.
What verse states he went 3 days without drinking?
Acts 9:
[9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
No, Paul actually MET WITH AND CONVERSED WITH THE RESURRECTED AND ALIVE JESUS CHRIST!
Paul in his own words was an apostle born of due time. Jesus had been executed some years prior to Paul's experience in Damascus. Paul was not present for any of the events claimed in the Gospels. Including the claimed post resurrection stories. According to the disciples of Jesus, Jesus had ascended to heaven years before Paul was converted. Again I ask, how likely is it that Paul ACTUALLY had a face to face with a man who had been dead for several years?
Do you think Christ had to hold a sword to Saul's throat to go against Saul's will?
He chose to strike him blind instead of using a sword. Saul/Paul was chosen for a very special mission, and his story is unique. Let us not pretend it is common for Jesus to strike people blind in order to force them to convert. We all know that is not how it works.
He chose to strike him blind instead of using a sword. Saul/Paul was chosen for a very special mission, and his story is unique. Let us not pretend it is common for Jesus to strike people blind in order to force them to convert. We all know that is not how it works.
Where does it state that Christ struck Paul blind?
The point is that Paul didn't want to be saved. He wanted nothing to do with Christ. That God had other plans for Paul's life is beside the point. Paul didn't know that until Christ intervened. Tired of the Nonsense said he doesn't want to be saved. Too bad. Christ already died for his sins and ransomed him. It's a little too late to complain now.
You "believe that their spirits are alive today." Which is simply another way of saying, "that's the way things are in my imagination." Because you entirely made that up. What we actually OBSERVE however, is that the dead die and remain dead. Make believe has yet to change that. "I believe" is just another way of saying," it's true because that's what I prefer to think is true." But that doesn't actually amount to a hill beans does it? Everyone who lived 2,000 years ago IS STILL DEAD. And that's NOT make believe.
Whatever you say. I'm curious, though... if you're so tired of the nonsense, why do you go looking for it? When you post on a Christianity forum, you've pretty much got to consider that you're going to run into people you think believe nonsense. There's a way around that, you know. Just sayin'.
Where does it state that Christ struck Paul blind?
The point is that Paul didn't want to be saved. He wanted nothing to do with Christ. That God had other plans for Paul's life is beside the point. Paul didn't know that until Christ intervened. Tired of the Nonsense said he doesn't want to be saved. Too bad. Christ already died for his sins and ransomed him. It's a little too late to complain now.
Let's repeat shall we: Let us not pretend it is common for Jesus to strike people blind in order to force them to convert. We all know that is not how it works.
Whatever you say. I'm curious, though... if you're so tired of the nonsense, why do you go looking for it? When you post on a Christianity forum, you've pretty much got to consider that you're going to run into people you think believe nonsense. There's a way around that, you know. Just sayin'.
Well, this IS where one would reasonably expect to find Christians. Is it not? Where do Christians missionaries go to find non Christians? They go to the places were non Christians tend to congregate.
How does one go about confronting nonsense? That would be by exposing it for the nonsense that it is. Have you ever noticed how Christian claims invariably fall entirely apart when exposed to actual examination? There is a reason for that.
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 05-03-2016 at 04:15 PM..
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