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If that's the case then your earlier comment cannot be true. Why should a believer fear hell?
What earlier comment cannot be true ? Please specify , as I have made 6 posts previous to this one .
Quote:
Your personal experience shows you became a Christians out of fear, but that is not the case with everyone. Many come to Christ because they feel they needed Him. Their lives were empty and unhappy and Christ filled the void.
It is unfortunate that folks like you cannot have a simple discussion without jumping to these types of conclusions as a substitute for actually addressing a point made. I did not become a Christian out of fear . I became a Christian because I wanted to raise my soon to be born child in what I then regarded as the moral and right way , and in doing so I returned to the denomination of my youth . It was the first blush of fatherhood .
But if you will look at my original point in post 66 it was the idea that many if not most do become Christian because of a desire to avoid Hell . Not that everyone did so, but that such is the big draw of Christianity.
If you deny this then explain to me the role you believe Christ plays in your theology . Did he come to help make you a better person and create a better society , or did he come to provide a way of salvation for humanity?
Or maybe it's better asked this way . If you had a child that came to you and said they didn't believe in God and rejected the idea of Jesus and him dying for our sins, would you simply accept that and move on in the same way you would if they had informed you that they didn't agree with your politics and were supporting the other side now, or would you fear for their future in the afterlife ?
Last edited by wallflash; 04-23-2016 at 07:14 PM..
But don't expect DRob4JC nor FinnJarber nor Twin.spin to come close to picking up such a book to learn more about Jesus from a different perspective. They haven't the faith to be challenged in their core beliefs. They worry that it would "subvert" them. They are fearful people wishing to preserve what they have, not find a fresh perspective about Jesus of Nazareth. Those who are Christ followers aren't afraid of any truth and plunge right in where ardent fundamentalists quake.
Let's see... I can learn about Jesus from the book where He is directly quoted, or I can learn about Him from people 2,000+ years removed. I will take Answer A.
You continue to let the adversary use you and be full of accusations.
Look at the evidence at hand. You have chosen to let a bunch of people with a bunch of different viewpoints into your world view. Look where you are now... you are a continual accuser of the brethren - which by extension is an accuser of Christ - which is characteristic of the adversary. Why would I want to go there?
So let me be clear. It is not fear... it is purposeful to stay away from many of these other opinions. Not interested. To focus on Christ properly, look to the book in which the Holy Spirit is responsible. If a fresh perspective is needed, get it from the Holy Spirit.
You know, Christianity is not a religion - it's a relationship with the living Christ. And if any relationship is to be successful, you need to spend time with that person.
It sure seems like you spend much of your time - not with Christ - but with these people pushing this particular concept of fear. So you have basically become one with them. How much time do you spend with Christ - as opposed to these people?
Here's my story - I used to listen everyday to Limbaugh for 10+years. But I had to catch myself (or the Holy Spirit prompted me) in that I found I was sounding more like him that Jesus Christ. So I stopped listening. Limbaugh did not die for me, Jesus did.
All of these authors you are committing your time to - they did not die for you, Jesus did. Return to Him.
But if you will look at my original point in post 66 it was the idea that many if not most do become Christian because of a desire to avoid Hell . Not that everyone did so, but that such is the big draw of Christianity.
If you deny this then explain to me the role you believe Christ plays in your theology . Did he come to help make you a better person and create a better society , or did he come to provide a way of salvation for humanity?
Or maybe it's better asked this way . If you had a child that came to you and said they didn't believe in God and rejected the idea of Jesus and him dying for our sins, would you simply accept that and move on in the same way you would if they had informed you that they didn't agree with your politics and were supporting the other side now, or would you fear for their future in the afterlife ?
I believe what Jesus said:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
You can tell people what Jesus taught, but if they reject it, it is because they are not being drawn. When they believe, it is because they were drawn. Does God use fear to draw people? I believe He draws different people in different ways.
Let's see... I can learn about Jesus from the book where He is directly quoted, or I can learn about Him from people 2,000+ years removed. I will take Answer A.
You continue to let the adversary use you and be full of accusations.
Look at the evidence at hand. You have chosen to let a bunch of people with a bunch of different viewpoints into your world view. Look where you are now... you are a continual accuser of the brethren - which by extension is an accuser of Christ - which is characteristic of the adversary. Why would I want to go there?
So let me be clear. It is not fear... it is purposeful to stay away from many of these other opinions. Not interested. To focus on Christ properly, look to the book in which the Holy Spirit is responsible. If a fresh perspective is needed, get it from the Holy Spirit.
If the highlighted were true you wouldn't be spouting what your preacher has given you. You would learn for yourself.
But the hardest thing for a fundamentalist to do is to think for himself. He is too tied to his community to EVER challenge any thinking--as I recently read a former fundamentalist who has a teenager had the guts to stand up and ask, "How did Noah live to be 900 years ago," to which the lecturer responded, "There was a lot less stress in those days." LESS STRESS, a flood to wipe out the world came and there was less stress?
I accuse no brethren because I don't see any among fundamentalists. I don't see Christ followers, just fundamental fear-mongers. You yourself once said the pastor of that Georgia church where nine people were gunned down should have allowed guns in their "holy" building. That is pure fear speaking. It's not living in confidence that God will care for us as He sees fit. God called me to challenge the spirit of fundamentalism, not stroke the egos of those caught in it.
You are the epitome of fear in your deepest being, DRob4JC, so you cling to your "community" of other fearful "bible-believers," in order to feel "secure." But nothing you posts speaks of security at all--it speaks of fear.
I have no community of so-called believers with whom I gather. I am free to study Scripture and understand that not even all the words attributed to Jesus in the bible came from His lips (observe the two "different" Jesus's in the Synoptics vs John). I am free to weigh equally the thoughts of sinful men today as to weigh the thoughts of sinners who wrote the Bible.
You are a captive and only you are capable of freeing yourself. But that takes a courage I have not seen you display in any of your posts.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 04-24-2016 at 03:17 PM..
You know, Christianity is not a religion - it's a relationship with the living Christ. And if any relationship is to be successful, you need to spend time with that person.
It sure seems like you spend much of your time - not with Christ - but with these people pushing this particular concept of fear. So you have basically become one with them. How much time do you spend with Christ - as opposed to these people?
Here's my story - I used to listen everyday to Limbaugh for 10+years. But I had to catch myself (or the Holy Spirit prompted me) in that I found I was sounding more like him that Jesus Christ. So I stopped listening. Limbaugh did not die for me, Jesus did.
All of these authors you are committing your time to - they did not die for you, Jesus did. Return to Him.
MY faith is a relationship, but yours is nothing but religion. Religion is rules--and that's all you have. A rulebook that you adore. My faith sees Christ in others, not a book. That's what led me to Christ in the first place--seeing Him in others.
Confessing you listened to Limbaugh, a premier fear-monger, is a step in the right direction. Letting anyone else do your thinking is sinful. But failing to listen to as many voices as you can is equally sinful. There needs to be balance. So I'm now reading a "liberal" author with whom I have a number of disagreements. That is no reason to ignore him, because he doesn't present his message as "the only way to believe." Those "this is the only way" authors are the ones I avoid.
Yes, Jesus died for me. And others HAVE had a similar experience, but you would have me ignore their witness??? What kind of hubris is that?
If the highlighted were true you wouldn't be spouting what your preacher has given you. You would learn for yourself.
But the hardest thing for a fundamentalist to do is to think for himself. He is too tied to his community to EVER challenge any thinking--as I recently read a former fundamentalist who has a teenager had the guts to stand up and ask, "How did Noah live to be 900 years ago," to which the lecturer responded, "There was a lot less stress in those days." LESS STRESS, a flood to wipe out the world came and there was less stress?
I accuse no brethren because I don't see any among fundamentalists. I don't see Christ followers, just fundamental fear-mongers. You yourself once said the pastor of that Georgia church where nine people were gunned down should have allowed guns in their "holy" building. That is pure fear speaking. It's not living in confidence that God will care for us as He sees fit. God called me to challenge the spirit of fundamentalism, not stroke the egos of those caught in it.
You are the epitome of fear in your deepest being, DRob4JC, so you cling to your "community" of other fearful "bible-believers," in order to feel "secure." But nothing you posts speaks of security at all--it speaks of fear.
I have no community of so-called believers with whom I gather. I am free to study Scripture and understand that not even all the words attributed to Jesus in the bible came from His lips (observe the two "different" Jesus's in the Synoptics vs John). I am free to weigh equally the thoughts of sinful men today as to weigh the thoughts of sinners who wrote the Bible.
You are a captive and only you are capable of freeing yourself. But that takes a courage I have not seen you display in any of your posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
MY faith is a relationship, but yours is nothing but religion. Religion is rules--and that's all you have. A rulebook that you adore. My faith sees Christ in others, not a book. That's what led me to Christ in the first place--seeing Him in others.
Confessing you listened to Limbaugh, a premier fear-monger, is a step in the right direction. Letting anyone else do your thinking is sinful. But failing to listen to as many voices as you can is equally sinful. There needs to be balance. So I'm now reading a "liberal" author with whom I have a number of disagreements. That is no reason to ignore him, because he doesn't present his message as "the only way to believe." Those "this is the only way" authors are the ones I avoid.
Yes, Jesus died for me. And others HAVE had a similar experience, but you would have me ignore their witness??? What kind of hubris is that?
No faith in the Bible... well... let's say selective faith in the Bible. More false accusations of fear.
It's obvious you spend your time wrapped up in human wisdom rather than a community of believers. I will leave you to them.
What's the point of progressive Christianity, other than the congratulation of oneself for being so much better educated and open-minded than the fundamentalist?
If it's about helping the less fortunate, great. But secular organizations and government social programs can do the same thing.
Your faith is EVERY BIT as selective as mine--not one whit less. You ignore the most important lessons from Scripture regarding the poor and marginalized and how we should approach them.
I'm sorry if psychiatrists see fundamentalism for what it is. That wasn't my call, but once I learned about it I could sure relate to many, many instances when I was entrapped in it.
Guns--fear and opposition
Same sex marriage--fear and opposition
Political and educational buildings sans religious ornaments--fear and opposition
Immigration--fear and opposition
Women treated equally (as pastors or anything else)--fear and opposition
Scientific discovery--fear and opposition
But if you have no fear, do not fear, you simply haven't looked into your gun-loving heart very deeply.
Here are the kind of things fundamentalists say to progressive Christ followers when the fundamentalists are unhappy with what they hear:
Bitterness: in fundie-speak, is a tool to silence anyone who is being critical. If you’re accused of “bitterness,” it means that you are incapable of viewing any situation or person “correctly,” that you lack the capacity for love and grace, and what you actually need to work on is yourself. This is FinnJarber's favorite line toward me. And he is partially correct. I am a bit bitter about how Jesus was crucified again on the cross of fundamentalism from the time I was a young man until now.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water: it’s really just our personal experiences that we have to get over. Why keep talking of a relationship with Jesus if our "personal" experiences don't count? When Christianity has been the weapon used to beat you, sometimes, throwing the whole thing out is the only healthy thing left to do.
You were never really a christian: By any measure, people who grew up in Christian fundamentalism, prayed the sinner’s prayer, loved God, loved Jesus... they were Christians (of some sort) any way you look at it. But after discovering the freedom of progressive Christianity it is easy to see that if we were ever saved at all, it was purely as a babe--because like a baby we kept squalling over anything that didn't meet our definition of "christian."
If you’re not currently attending a church, you have walked away from God: Can I hear Hebrews 10:25 just one more time anybody??? Asking some of us to go back to church is akin to asking a wife to return to an abusive husband or a soldier suffering from PTSD to go back to the battlefield. It means you aren't listening to any of us who have escaped the hell hole you wish us to be in.
Why do you have to criticize the Church? Do you hate Christians?: This common perception that Christianity is under constant, brutal attack on all fronts, and it’s a battle you are all gloriously and nobly fighting is paramount among fundamentalists. Anyone like me who criticizes organized religion is thought to be an apostate. Defending the reputation of the organization at the cost of actual people is the line fundamentalists know by heart.
You’re hurting the church. We need unity, not division: This is the fundamentalist order to all progressives to shut up and open up their coloring books. There are plenty of things that sow division--and virtually all of them come from fundamentalist hearts. Jeffbase40 was fond of protecting child molester Josh Duggar. Others come forward to stand up for county clerks who won't follow the laws of the land, or for bakers who wish to refuse people cakes. Hypocritically that, according to them, doesn't apply in the case of medical services or transportation. My question is "Why not?"
And now the big one, DRob4JC, which you use constantly: My church is fundamentalist, and we’re not anything like what you’re describing: I use the words fundamentalist and fundamentalism to talk about a specific Christian movement, and I use the accepted term to describe it. Perhaps your church is not. But your posts indicate that you have learned some pretty horrible stuff--whereas about much of the other we would probably still be in agreement. Where we differ is on how to treat those "other" people, the ones that don't fit into your biblical interpretation of "headed for the Promised Land." And when it comes to people and how we treat them, that is a huge, huge difference. Monumental! A chasm deeper and wider than the Grand Canyon. For while the water in that canyon should be shared by all, fundamentalists have set up an exclusive hold on it--either "drink from the river in the manner we prescribe, or you are nothing but an apostate to be pushed aside."
Fundamentalism is a microcosm of Christianity. Unfortunately it is the most vocal group out there. And now that those "others" are seeing it, they want nothing to do with it. And even the young people currently IN the church are getting disgusted and departing.
So, yes, I see fundamentalism as a nail in the heart of Jesus.
And it all starts with how fundamentalism has chosen to "selectively" interpret Scripture. I see many interpretations-and none of them frighten me. If you even think there is another possible valid one, your fear level mounts.
I know you. I was you. You don't have to stay that way. But you must be willing to give up your "wealth," whatever that is (the community of other fundamentalists most likely) and that is downright scary for anyone who hasn't the Spirit of Christ alive inside of them. I made the decision to leave fundamentalist christianity, but many of its trappings (like gospel quartet music) are at the core of my being. But it was so important to me not to make judgments about "sinners," that I was willing to leave a church where I had preached on numerous occasions as a lay pastor, where I had been asked several times to be a deacon (but refused each time), and where the "community" was every bit as important as your own. But I knew that truth was not at the heart of their message and I prayed to God saying, "If I have to find that narrow path by walking barefoot on gravel and through thorn bushes, I will do so. If I have to go alone, I will do so. If all men despise and forsake me, so it shall be." I chose the path of agape love. To take that path is a costly road of discipleship, because it means everything changes from what you once knew.
FinnJarber has a habit of mocking those believing in "agape love." And the reason he is able to do so is because he has the ability to "selectively" pick out Scripture he likes while ignoring important other verses.
Well so do progressive Christ followers and that is why we stand against anything oppressing anyone for any reason. We aren't afraid:
I John 4:18-19
Is plagiarism from HuffPo part of your ministry? At least give credit to or acknowledge the list that you used...
Otherwise, here is what the ministers of Matthew 23 say to certain Christians when they don't like what they hear... fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, afraid, fear, afraid, fear, afraid...
Yeah, I fear... I fear the Lord.
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What kind of hubris is that?
