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If we support ourselves and so on, why is that scary? Why is it worthy of nasty names (such as comparisons to Jezebel or worse, Lilith), why is it to be stamped out, etc.?
It doesn't seem to me as if it is something God would actually have chosen (superiority/inferiority depending upon gender). That simply doesn't make sense, particularly given the fact that either gender might have times that we need to defend ourselves, protect ourselves, take care of others, take care of ourselves, etc.
It just seems so fear-based. Like: keep women inferior AT ALL COSTS. It's as if we women taking care of ourselves is some life-threatening thing. But that doesn't make sense, indeed, being the ones who carry and give birth to children, it would seem to make sense that we were more entirely self-sufficient, not less so.
Why on earth are we so scary? We're just people. Like you. We just want to take care of ourselves and our own. Like you. We want to use our brains. Like you. We want to have nothing to fear. Like you. Yet in some religions, or at least some people's interpretation of some religions, women wanting to not be caught, subjugated, and fairly helpless is considered not only "unnatural"...it's a sin.
Just think about that, and think about you being in that position, pretty much helpless, and think about your entire culture enforcing that, so that you COULD NOT take care of yourself and you COULD NOT make decisions. On top of feeling humiliated, do you not think that would be about as counter-survival as anything could be? If so, then why should it be less so for us women?
Last edited by JerZ; 05-03-2016 at 12:38 AM..
Reason: Us, not we
No he is not obeying me. If I ask him to scratch my back. He is giving not obeying.
Obey: to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions of:
Yes, he is obeying wish. If you want to call it 'giving' ok that's fine. He is giving in to your wish. I know you hate the word but simple truth is we all obey something or someone. Changing the word doesn't change the definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonkonkomaNative
If he is going off a cliff, since I am his most trusted advisor, he considers what I say and makes his own decision. If he decides to go off the cliff, I cannot stop him. I simply will not go with him.
There are two ways we can obey. We can obey when we understand why we need to comply or as you would say 'give'. Then their is the one that I think you will have a problem with when it comes to people in any higher position. Then there is obeying or 'giving' when you don't understand why you have to comply or 'give'. Many have a problem with obeying under those conditions. Not without good reason either. Look at the history and their abuse of power. But, just as you are your husbands most trusted advisor God should be ours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonkonkomaNative
We do not cast blame for poor decision making. We move forward. I can assure you, the world we live in is pretty awesome, and we have never had horrible lives. No let, no allow, no obey.
God does not force me to do anything and never will. We do not have that kind of relationship.
That is because you both do obey or 'give' to each other. Again I know you don't want to think that you obey someone but you do. If you have a good marriage then that is proof that you do obey and so does he. It's not a bad thing, to obey. To not obey is the spirit if this world. Romans 12:2 says, "And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." We shouldn't let the world's bashing of the concept of obeying mold us into wanting to be rebels. One day, you might have a clear sign from God to go do something but because you don't see the reason you might refuse and it might cost you dearly. To hate the idea to obey is a trap.
In fact, women don't even have the brain capacity to assume the role of headship. Even wanting to be a leader in the congregation would make a woman like a HOMOSEXUAL.
Obey: to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions of:
Yes, he is obeying wish. If you want to call it 'giving' ok that's fine. He is giving in to your wish. I know you hate the word but simple truth is we all obey something or someone. Changing the word doesn't change the definition.
There are two ways we can obey. We can obey when we understand why we need to comply or as you would say 'give'. Then their is the one that I think you will have a problem with when it comes to people in any higher position. Then there is obeying or 'giving' when you don't understand why you have to comply or 'give'. Many have a problem with obeying under those conditions. Not without good reason either. Look at the history and their abuse of power. But, just as you are your husbands most trusted advisor God should be ours.
That is because you both do obey or 'give' to each other. Again I know you don't want to think that you obey someone but you do. If you have a good marriage then that is proof that you do obey and so does he. It's not a bad thing, to obey. To not obey is the spirit if this world. Romans 12:2 says, "And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." We shouldn't let the world's bashing of the concept of obeying mold us into wanting to be rebels. One day, you might have a clear sign from God to go do something but because you don't see the reason you might refuse and it might cost you dearly. To hate the idea to obey is a trap.
No. We are giving. Not obeying. There is a big difference between obey, and give. I have to obey the law and stop at red lights.
I do not have to give him a back rub. I have to stop at red lights, or there is a consequence.
Come to think of it. God does not ask me for anything. We do not have the Master/Slave relationships. We are friends. No bowing, or groveling, just good friends.
If we support ourselves and so on, why is that scary? Why is it worthy of nasty names (such as comparisons to Jezebel or worse, Lilith), why is it to be stamped out, etc.?
It doesn't seem to me as if it is something God would actually have chosen (superiority/inferiority depending upon gender). That simply doesn't make sense, particularly given the fact that either gender might have times that we need to defend ourselves, protect ourselves, take care of others, take care of ourselves, etc.
It just seems so fear-based. Like: keep women inferior AT ALL COSTS. It's as if we women taking care of ourselves is some life-threatening thing. But that doesn't make sense, indeed, being the ones who carry and give birth to children, it would seem to make sense that we were more entirely self-sufficient, not less so.
Why on earth are we so scary? We're just people. Like you. We just want to take care of ourselves and our own. Like you. We want to use our brains. Like you. We want to have nothing to fear. Like you. Yet in some religions, or at least some people's interpretation of some religions, women wanting to not be caught, subjugated, and fairly helpless is considered not only "unnatural"...it's a sin.
Just think about that, and think about you being in that position, pretty much helpless, and think about your entire culture enforcing that, so that you COULD NOT take care of yourself and you COULD NOT make decisions. On top of feeling humiliated, do you not think that would be about as counter-survival as anything could be? If so, then why should it be less so for us women?
It is vagina-envy of impotent men. I think it is especially rampant in fundamentalist ideology.
According to the bible, men were not chosen to be the seed for Jesus. God made that decision when Adam blamed Eve for his own behavior. God knew then, men were unworthy.
Try as they might, they cannot get past the fact. Men were not worthy to create Jesus. It was a woman and God according to the bible. Vagina envy. We do what they cannot do.
No. We are giving. Not obeying. There is a big difference between obey, and give. I have to obey the law and stop at red lights.
I do not have to give him a back rub. I have to stop at red lights, or there is a consequence.
Come to think of it. God does not ask me for anything. We do not have the Master/Slave relationships. We are friends. No bowing, or groveling, just good friends.
And do you think if you didn't obey by giving those back rubs and the other nice things he asks you to do there wouldn't be a consequence? You don't have to stop at red lights. You don't have to give back rubs. Are there not benefits to doing those things though? Is there not a consequence for never doing anything nice that someone asks you to do? I know if my wife came up to me and opened her arms wanting me to hug her and I simply walked away, I assure you there would be consequences.
It seems you will need to tell your heart whatever you need to. Don't stop doing good things for your husband if one day you finally understand that you are actually obeying someone. What I see is you are obeying anytime you do was someone asks you to do. What drives you to do it is irrelevant. Fear of a crash or for the love of your mate. It doesn't matter.
So you say God doesn't ask you for anything. Does this mean you don't believe the Bible to be God's Word?
And do you think if you didn't obey by giving those back rubs and the other nice things he asks you to do there wouldn't be a consequence? You don't have to stop at red lights. You don't have to give back rubs. Are there not benefits to doing those things though? Is there not a consequence for never doing anything nice that someone asks you to do? I know if my wife came up to me and opened her arms wanting me to hug her and I simply walked away, I assure you there would be consequences.
I seems you will need to tell your heart whatever you need to. Don't stop doing good things for your husband if one day you finally understand that you are actually obeying someone. What I see is you are obeying anytime you do was someone asks you to do. What drives you to do it is irrelevant. Fear of a crash or for the love of your mate. It doesn't matter.
So you say God doesn't ask you for anything. Does this mean you don't believe the Bible to be God's Word?
If I blow through a red light, I will most likely be in a terrible accident. If I am not inclined to cook, or clean, there is no consequence. I have no fear of punishment, or rejection. He is very capable of cooking and cleaning. If he is not inclined to cook or clean, there are no consequences, either. Sooner or later, someone cooks and cleans. If it ever became an issue, we would hire someone to clean, and go out to dinner. We always find a solution.
I do not believe the bible as God's word, or only word. Once in a while, there is a glimpse of the amazing.
However, the bible is written by men for men. Men have believe the bible was inspired by God. Men assuming the mantle of God-go-between tell women how to behave. I think it is quite a racket.
My relationship with God is not bound between the confining pages of the bible. I do not have a Master/Slave relationship with God, and God does not want, or need that kind of relationship with me.
If I blow through a red light, I will most likely be in a terrible accident. If I am not inclined to cook, or clean, there is no consequence. I have no fear of punishment, or rejection. He is very capable of cooking and cleaning. If he is not inclined to cook or clean, there are no consequences, either. Sooner or later, someone cooks and cleans. If it ever became an issue, we would hire someone to clean, and go out to dinner. We always find a solution.
To not obey doesn't always end in punishment, rejection or a terrible accident. It can lead to loss of loyalty, respect or even undermine trust. As you said, sooner or later someone must obey at some point and cook and clean. That is a great example. To not obey people starve or people get sick from an unclean environment. If you don't do it then you have someone else that obeys maybe for money. There is always someone obeying. But it's not the nasty four letter word that people have made to be. We need to obey. It is vital.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonkonkomaNative
I do not believe the bible as God's word, or only word. Once in a while, there is a glimpse of the amazing.
However, the bible is written by men for men. Men have believe the bible was inspired by God. Men assuming the mantle of God-go-between tell women how to behave. I think it is quite a racket.
My relationship with God is not bound between the confining pages of the bible. I do not have a Master/Slave relationship with God, and God does not want, or need that kind of relationship with me.
Sorry to hear that. At least even though you might not want to recognize it, you are following some of the commandments in the Bible. Because you do, you are being blessed for it. Perhaps you don't want to recognize that either. The Bible says that God doesn't hold back anything good. Even from those that don't believe in Him or His Word. I can only hope that at some point you can break the mold that the world has put you into when it comes to being obedient. I have found so many times what the Bible teaches and what people in the world believe the Bible is the most balanced. On one hand we have the people that started this thread then on the other hand there are those like yourself that go the complete opposite direction. And for the record I don't believe that giving women the ability to make decisions is why the world is what it is today. The Bible doesn't support that. It's a bunch of angry men that are in fear of losing their power. Which is their own fault. Why? They didn't obey God's Word the Bible to treat women as they treat themselves. Have a good day.
To not obey doesn't always end in punishment, rejection or a terrible accident. It can lead to loss of loyalty, respect or even undermine trust. As you said, sooner or later someone must obey at some point and cook and clean. That is a great example. To not obey people starve or people get sick from an unclean environment. If you don't do it then you have someone else that obeys maybe for money. There is always someone obeying. But it's not the nasty four letter word that people have made to be. We need to obey. It is vital.
Sorry to hear that. At least even though you might not want to recognize it, you are following some of the commandments in the Bible. Because you do, you are being blessed for it. Perhaps you don't want to recognize that either. The Bible says that God doesn't hold back anything good. Even from those that don't believe in Him or His Word. I can only hope that at some point you can break the mold that the world has put you into when it comes to being obedient. I have found so many times what the Bible teaches and what people in the world believe the Bible is the most balanced. On one hand we have the people that started this thread then on the other hand there are those like yourself that go the complete opposite direction. And for the record I don't believe that giving women the ability to make decisions is why the world is what it is today. The Bible doesn't support that. It's a bunch of angry men that are in fear of losing their power. Which is their own fault. Why? They didn't obey God's Word the Bible to treat women as they treat themselves. Have a good day.
Yes. The bible has some wonderful ideas. I do not murder, kill, covet, commit adultery.... or anything that would harm another person. I believe in following the laws about red light/green light.
Obey is a special word to you. It has no place in my relationship. I do not believe the bible offers balance for women. It give men the idea they have the God given right to tell women how to behave. It seems women in ancient times were bad girls. I wish they had more voice in the bible. The stories might be very different.
I am glad you understand the Bible does not support fearful men. With enough time. perhaps you can spread that word to those who think they know better. Have a great day Timothy. You give me hope.
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