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I didn't want to be born into the death realm, either, but nobody asked me if I wanted to. We have been subjected to futility not willingly, but by the one who will deliver us out of this mess.
I believe that was Paul. At any rate, he described Heaven as having three differing degrees of glory. He compared them to the sun, moon and stars.
And what about the biblical reference to "the third heaven"? How could there be a third heaven if there wasn't a first and second heaven? Please don't try telling me that the three heavens are our atmosphere, outer space, and the home of God. The Bible never refers to our atmosphere as heaven, and it's clearly not.
I was thinking about Joseph.
Paul is not exactly a person I would want as a witness..
Where did Jesus teach there were 3 levels of Heaven? He said heaven and hell shall pass ways..not the 3 heavens and one hell..
3 THE NUMBER OF DIVINE PERFECTION. The Trinity consists of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There are three qualities of the universe: Time, Space, and Matter. To exist (except for God) all three are required. Each quality consists of three elements. Therefore, we live in a trinity of trinities.
The three qualities of universe are each three:
Time is one yet three Space is one yet three Matter is one yet three
Past
Present
Future Height
Width
Depth Solid
Liquid
Gas
We live in a Trinity of Trinities: Romans 1:20 says, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made . . . "
If you are a trichotomist then man is made of three parts:
Body Soul Spirit
Human abilities are three
Thought Word Deed
The divine attributes are three-fold:
God is:
Omniscient
Omnipresent
Omnipotent Love
Light
Spirit Holy
Righteous
Just
Three bear witness (1 John 5:8):
Spirit Water Blood
Christ is Three Shepherds
The Good Shepherd (John 10:14-15)--speaking of His death
The Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)--speaking of His resurrection
The Chief Shepherd (1 Pet. 5:4)--speaking of His glory
The Three appearances of Christ:
Past:
Present:
Future:
Has appeared (Heb. 9:26) to put away sin
Is appearing (Heb. 9:24) in the presence of God
Will appear (Heb. 9:28) to those who await Him
The Father spoke from Heaven three times:
Matt. 3:17, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Matt. 17:5, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him."
John 12:28, "I have both glorified it [the Father's name], and will glorify it again."
Both the Tabernacle and the Temple consisted of three parts:
The Court The Holy place The Sanctuary
Regarding the Tabernacle:
The Holy of Holies was a cube (10 cubits x 10 cubits x 10 cubits)
Regarding the Temple:
The Holy of Holies was a cube (20 cubits x 20 cubits x 20 cubits)
Paul is not exactly a person I would want as a witness..
Hmmm. Okay. Well, he may not be up to your standards, but he definitely meets mine.
Quote:
Where did Jesus teach there were 3 levels of Heaven? He said heaven and hell shall pass ways..not the 3 heavens and one hell..
Okay, you've got to clear something up for me before we go on, zthatzmanz. I know you were once a Christian but I didn't think you were anymore. I was more or less under the impression that you were agnostic or even an atheist. To what extent do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe only the "red letter" stuff? If one of Christ's apostles taught something, do you just dismiss it? Or are there certain apostles you're okay with and others that you're not? To me, if an apostle of Jesus Christ taught something, I feel pretty confident in believing it.
3 THE NUMBER OF DIVINE PERFECTION. The Trinity consists of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There are three qualities of the universe: Time, Space, and Matter. To exist (except for God) all three are required. Each quality consists of three elements. Therefore, we live in a trinity of trinities.
The three qualities of universe are each three:
Time is one yet three Space is one yet three Matter is one yet three
Past
Present
Future Height
Width
Depth Solid
Liquid
Gas
We live in a Trinity of Trinities: Romans 1:20 says, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made . . . "
If you are a trichotomist then man is made of three parts:
Body Soul Spirit
Human abilities are three
Thought Word Deed
The divine attributes are three-fold:
God is:
Omniscient
Omnipresent
Omnipotent Love
Light
Spirit Holy
Righteous
Just
Three bear witness (1 John 5:8):
Spirit Water Blood
Christ is Three Shepherds
The Good Shepherd (John 10:14-15)--speaking of His death
The Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)--speaking of His resurrection
The Chief Shepherd (1 Pet. 5:4)--speaking of His glory
The Three appearances of Christ:
Past:
Present:
Future:
Has appeared (Heb. 9:26) to put away sin
Is appearing (Heb. 9:24) in the presence of God
Will appear (Heb. 9:28) to those who await Him
The Father spoke from Heaven three times:
Matt. 3:17, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Matt. 17:5, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him."
John 12:28, "I have both glorified it [the Father's name], and will glorify it again."
Both the Tabernacle and the Temple consisted of three parts:
The Court The Holy place The Sanctuary
Regarding the Tabernacle:
The Holy of Holies was a cube (10 cubits x 10 cubits x 10 cubits)
Regarding the Temple:
The Holy of Holies was a cube (20 cubits x 20 cubits x 20 cubits)
So that means there are THREE Gods??
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how any of this really has anything to do with what we're talking about here. I mean, three of this, three of that? So what? We're not talking about how many Gods there are. We're talking about Heaven and Hell here. What do these comments have to do with the subject at hand?
Tell me, since I really do want to know... What you you envision Heaven to be like and who do you believe will end up going there? And if you do not believe in Heaven at all, why do you even care what anybody else thinks?
New American Standard Bible
Romans Chapter 8:
21 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
I would recommend reading the whole chapter. The whole book of Romans is my favorite really because it explains the fact that God is sovereign and that we do not have free will (except as it is made free in Christ) and many other deep truths.
What you you envision Heaven to be like and who do you believe will end up going there? And if you do not believe in Heaven at all, why do you even care what anybody else thinks?
Revelation 2 is showing saved people who were given a seed and made the keeper over the household of God to give God's children meat in due season. The pagans who follow Jezebel lose their children because they were supposed to teach their children the feast days of God and they didn't know the feast days of God. They remained children and because of this, their children are killed.
Revelation 2 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
This shows other people who are saved and given a child, they raised their child in the milk of the word until the child grew and started eating the meat of the word in the feast days, and these people have obtained the prize of the higher Zoe kingdom that few make it to.
What is heaven to these overcomers?
They are promised the rule of an entire planet. These overcomers receive all the promises that God gave to his son, Jesus gives to them, and those promises is that they will go down to an earth and do there, what Jesus did here.
Psalms
''7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.''
Revelation 2 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
The overcomer becomes a son of God where he will rule all nations with a rod of iron and this is done within the hearts of men.
If the chances of there being another habited earth in the universe is one in a trillion, then it would mean that there had already been ten billion habited earths in the universe in cosmic history. 10 billion habited earths before Earth ever had people.
I look at the bible as a training ground for breeding the sons of God, and the very few who become the firstfruits will then go down to an earth already created for them specifically just as I believe happened to Adam, and as has happened to Jesus.
Before Jesus came, mankind already had the spirit of God indwelling them but when Jesus came and gave his particular spirit to his bride at Shavuot, this was the first warning, and then the receiving of the first rain where the disciples were warned and then they received the promise and that spirit was shared from hand to hand and there was no doubt, there was no question to whether they had the spirit because they gave sight to the blind and healed the lame and even raised the dead.
This spirit that people claim to have right now is something that nobody does have right now. There aren't just thousands of disciples, there are millions of disciples. Those first few disciples went out in the power of the Holy spirit and the whole world heard of their miracles and the whole world was changed.
But now there are millions where there were just hundreds before, but out of all the millions of disciples today, NOT ONE can do the works that those first few disciples had done, and they cannot do those same miracles because the spirit was given and then it was taken away and no matter what anyone says,'' NOT ONE PERSON is going to walk into a children's cancer unit and to heal anyone, much less clear out the building as those first few disciples would have and could have done.
But we live in an era where we are promised so much more than those first disciples who obtained the first rain of spirit.
WE live in an era that they would have wanted to live in. Those people may brag of living in the days of Jesus, but those same people knew that there are two rains, and the great flood of the second giving of spirit makes that first Holy spirit look like nothing.
WE live in a time when the second promise will be received by those who acknowledge the days and who know the comings and goings of the master. WE live in a day where the second rain could fall and when it does, this will be a changed world.
It is most certainly going to happen one year in our future where on Rosh Hashanah everyone will know where they stand with God and for ten days people will gather the wealth of the nations when they have heard the report.
The feast of Tabernacles will come and Jesus will come to his disciples who have prepared and prayed for the rain and he will certainly warn them to stay in prayer.
When Shemini Atzeret has fallen on the disciples of Jesus, it will be as a world waking up to the realization that there be lions among the multitudes who will shine with the brightness of God because they lived in a time when a flood of spirit was poured out in double portion, those that receive are the sons of God, and those that receive will not share with anyone.
Just as we had a clear promise for the spirit of Pentecost, we also have a sure promise of the fall Pentecost. Pentecost is the conclusion day{Atzeret} of the Passover season where the promise is given, likewise, Shemini Atzeret is the conclusion day of the Tabernacles season where the final promise of spirit is given.
All the betrothed brides are saved and their salvation is glorious because they are a bride, and then there are people who became submissive virgins to the will of their betrothed and they raised a full grown son within them, and they are no longer brides, but sons.
Nothing wrong with being a bride having your salvation and Jesus will be the spirit dwelling in you as a husband to his bride, but a son will leave his father and mother to obtain his own bride.
Hmmm. Okay. Well, he may not be up to your standards, but he definitely meets mine.
Okay, you've got to clear something up for me before we go on, zthatzmanz. I know you were once a Christian but I didn't think you were anymore. I was more or less under the impression that you were agnostic or even an atheist. To what extent do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe only the "red letter" stuff? If one of Christ's apostles taught something, do you just dismiss it? Or are there certain apostles you're okay with and others that you're not? To me, if an apostle of Jesus Christ taught something, I feel pretty confident in believing it.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how any of this really has anything to do with what we're talking about here. I mean, three of this, three of that? So what? We're not talking about how many Gods there are. We're talking about Heaven and Hell here. What do these comments have to do with the subject at hand?
Tell me, since I really do want to know... What you you envision Heaven to be like and who do you believe will end up going there? And if you do not believe in Heaven at all, why do you even care what anybody else thinks?
The "symbolic" use of there, as in THREE HEAVENS? I really though that was clear, obviously not.
As three is used to describe various concepts like TIME (yet there is just time), the trinity, (yet there is just god)
A wee bit judgmental to say ONCE was a christian. I was once a CULTIST EVANGELICAL FUNDAMENTALIST.
I believed every single word and every single comma, period and apostrophe in the bible.
The I realized what the organized church was teaching was NOT the same as CHRIST taught. The church was teaching SIN, REPENTANT and OBEDIENCE and said next to nothing about love..
red letter stuff? I do do accept what others claim to say what Christ said. Take the writings of Paul, IO believe he had NO clue who Jesus is...
Philemon is nothing more than a how-to-treat-your-slave and a how-slaves-ought-to be-grateful. In reality, a course of servitude and how to be glad you suffer as slave.
So no, I have zero confidence is a book written 50--100 years after the fact that a group of MEN decided was the end all to knowing god--yet god could not or would not preserve the ORIGINALS??
Just like the BoM, the bible has been revised, edited and changed to fit and support the mind set of the ruling class while patronizing the lower caste and telling them BE HAPPY because god will reward you later.
Then the powers to be, the "educated" elitists, tell us that suffering is a sure fire route to redemption, BUT only now we must add X, Y and Z to the act to truly be acceptable?
Then along comes this 3 heavens crap. Eventually we are told that FIRST CLASS is FULL and god is no longer in search or or accepting people, because the quota on SAINTS has been met.
Now everyone is expected to scramble and literally FIGHT for a spot in SECOND CLASS. So we get busy trying to out-shine our neighbors--sure we try to encourage them to achieve and become worthy of god's forgiveness--which we were NEVER required to do as demonstrated by the thief who was give a room in the mansion and NEVER ASKED for it. All he did was admit Jesus was innocent and he was guilty--no father forgive me for I have sinned was needed.
So as we do this encouragement, we are always looking for ways to sabotage our friends to make sure we get a second class ticket and they are assured a third class ticket.
So in summary--IF god is a the cultist evangelical fundamentalists teach, I want NO part of thet demented, hateful, jealous and VENGEFUL piece of crap. ZERO..
If god is not all about absolute MERCY, JUSTICE, COMPASSION and LOVE, frack that entity and may it rot in hell for all the evil it has allowed and CREATED in this world.
FRACK that entity for all the SUFFERING, STARVATION, and ANGUISH it has allowed to exist--most of it perpetuated by people who proudly claim to be believers and followers--all for the sake pf personal gain.
FRACK that entity for leaving too many questions unanswered and for remaining silent for far too long--and leaving an old-moldy piece of crap book that has been used for generations to justify MURDER, SLAVERY, Pride. Envy. Wrath, Gluttony and Lust. Sloth and Greed all in the name of the bible--which lately has taken the place of god and become even MORE influential than god its self.
Thy KINGDOM COME thy WILL BE DONE ON EARTH as it is in HEAVEN (singular).
Heaven will be LIFE perfected. There will be no needs, wants or envy. Life will be as it was intended--ONE community--IMAGINE.
I care less what they think, I am concerned with what the TEACH others and that others become trapped in a tunnel because they have been coerced into believing ONE way and ONE way only.
I have seen too many lives ended because the GUILT, SHAME and FEAR of trying to be acceptable to such a TYRANNICAL ENTITY was impossible to attain.
If the chances of there being another habited earth in the universe is one in a trillion, then it would mean that there had already been ten billion habited earths in the universe in cosmic history. 10 billion habited earths before Earth ever had people.
No, it would mean that was a possibility; it wouldn't be it was a certainty. I can remember, as a child, reading an article in "National Scholastic," a little newspaper that was circulated at our school a few times a year. To this day, I remember a statistic that appeared in one article. It said that the chances for any person to have an "exact genetic duplicate" somewhere in the world was 1 in 70 million million. I wasn't sure how many people there were in the world, but I knew there were billions. I assumed that this statistic meant that somewhere in the world, there were a handful of people who were identical to me. That fascinated me for years, until I went back and thought about what the word "chance" actually means.
The "symbolic" use of there, as in THREE HEAVENS? I really thought that was clear, obviously not.
But if "three heavens" is merely symbolic, what exactly does it symbolize? In other words, what do the references to "three heavens" actually symbolize? Symbolism always has a meaning.
Quote:
A wee bit judgmental to say ONCE was a christian. I was once a CULTIST EVANGELICAL FUNDAMENTALIST.
Hey, don't go getting your feeling hurt. How was I being judgmental? I said what my impression of you has been, based on certain things I've seen you post on the forum. I hoped you would correct me if I was wrong, and I'm glad you have, but you don't need to call me judgmental for making a mistake.
Quote:
I believed every single word and every single comma, period and apostrophe in the bible.
The I realized what the organized church was teaching was NOT the same as CHRIST taught. The church was teaching SIN, REPENTANT and OBEDIENCE and said next to nothing about love..
red letter stuff? I do do accept what others claim to say what Christ said. Take the writings of Paul, IO believe he had NO clue who Jesus is...
Philemon is nothing more than a how-to-treat-your-slave and a how-slaves-ought-to be-grateful. In reality, a course of servitude and how to be glad you suffer as slave.
So no, I have zero confidence is a book written 50--100 years after the fact that a group of MEN decided was the end all to knowing god--yet god could not or would not preserve the ORIGINALS??
Just like the BoM, the bible has been revised, edited and changed to fit and support the mind set of the ruling class while patronizing the lower caste and telling them BE HAPPY because god will reward you later.
Then the powers to be, the "educated" elitists, tell us that suffering is a sure fire route to redemption, BUT only now we must add X, Y and Z to the act to truly be acceptable?
Okay, well I'm glad you were able to get that off your chest. Now back to our discussion of Heaven...
Quote:
Then along comes this 3 heavens crap. Eventually we are told that FIRST CLASS is FULL and god is no longer in search or or accepting people, because the quota on SAINTS has been met.
Now everyone is expected to scramble and literally FIGHT for a spot in SECOND CLASS. So we get busy trying to out-shine our neighbors--sure we try to encourage them to achieve and become worthy of god's forgiveness--which we were NEVER required to do as demonstrated by the thief who was give a room in the mansion and NEVER ASKED for it. All he did was admit Jesus was innocent and he was guilty--no father forgive me for I have sinned was needed.
So as we do this encouragement, we are always looking for ways to sabotage our friends to make sure we get a second class ticket and they are assured a third class ticket.
So in summary--IF god is a the cultist evangelical fundamentalists teach, I want NO part of thet demented, hateful, jealous and VENGEFUL piece of crap. ZERO..
If god is not all about absolute MERCY, JUSTICE, COMPASSION and LOVE, frack that entity and may it rot in hell for all the evil it has allowed and CREATED in this world.
FRACK that entity for all the SUFFERING, STARVATION, and ANGUISH it has allowed to exist--most of it perpetuated by people who proudly claim to be believers and followers--all for the sake pf personal gain.
FRACK that entity for leaving too many questions unanswered and for remaining silent for far too long--and leaving an old-moldy piece of crap book that has been used for generations to justify MURDER, SLAVERY, Pride. Envy. Wrath, Gluttony and Lust. Sloth and Greed all in the name of the bible--which lately has taken the place of god and become even MORE influential than god its self.
Thy KINGDOM COME thy WILL BE DONE ON EARTH as it is in HEAVEN (singular).
Wow. You really do have a fundamentalist background, don't you. Personally, I believe I don't believe that "first class is full" or that anyone need fight for a spot in second class. I believe there's as much room in every class as there are people who want to be there.
Quote:
Heaven will be LIFE perfected. There will be no needs, wants or envy. Life will be as it was intended--ONE community--IMAGINE.
Okay, I appreciate your input. But Jesus did say that He would "reward every man according to his works." To me, this indicates that our rewards in heaven won't all be the same. Regardless of how Christ intends to make the distinction, I believe that greater commitment to Him will result in greater blessings. That seems to be entirely consistent with scripture to me.
Quote:
I care less what they think, I am concerned with what the TEACH others and that others become trapped in a tunnel because they have been coerced into believing ONE way and ONE way only.
I have seen too many lives ended because the GUILT, SHAME and FEAR of trying to be acceptable to such a TYRANNICAL ENTITY was impossible to attain.
As I said before, I had no idea your fundamentalist past affected you so deeply and so negatively. It's hard for me to relate, simply because I was never made to feel the guilt, shame or fear you speak of. These things just weren't ever a part of my religious upbringing.
Salvation is not reward, reward is something people seek after salvation as those first believers did when they knew they were going out suffering to gain a better resurrection.
1 Corinthians
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a Reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Those first came out and sold businesses and homes and they began living common with all the disciples, they gave up everything JUST TO SEEK a better resurrection.
Imagine you are married and living a luxurious lifestyle and then you become a believer and you sell all you own and tell your wife, '' let us give everything up to gain treasure in heaven.''
What would a wife say today?
Just the opposite!
''Let us be kings.''
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Now back to our discussion of Heaven...
