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Do you think that it is possible that when the "law" is discussed in the New Testament, it is not necessarily some kind of vague "mystical" thing. I'm not referring the Law of Christ. I am referring to the law that Paul writes about. I think it is possible that he is referring to all the laws of the Hebrews, particularly the idea of Moral Law in general. But this was tied into their civil laws. All of their laws were considered moral laws, handed down from God.
But the point of Jesus Christ was that he questioned the whole idea of Moral Laws. The idea that a man could write a law and have it be a standard of morality for all men. I think this was the sin of Adam. (As all are dead in Adam, all are alive in Jesus Christ, paraphrased). There was really one sin, that is the sin of writing moral laws on which to judge people. That was the one sin that Adam and Even committed: Knowledge of Good and Evil.
To say that something is good or evil is to set up yourself as God.
That is the ONLY sin that a person can commit, according to the Bible: Legislating morality.
Do you think that it is possible that when the "law" is discussed in the New Testament, it is not necessarily some kind of vague "mystical" thing. I'm not referring the Law of Christ. I am referring to the law that Paul writes about. I think it is possible that he is referring to all the laws of the Hebrews, particularly the idea of Moral Law in general. But this was tied into their civil laws. All of their laws were considered moral laws, handed down from God.
But the point of Jesus Christ was that he questioned the whole idea of Moral Laws. The idea that a man could write a law and have it be a standard of morality for all men. I think this was the sin of Adam. (As all are dead in Adam, all are alive in Jesus Christ, paraphrased). There was really one sin, that is the sin of writing moral laws on which to judge people. That was the one sin that Adam and Even committed: Knowledge of Good and Evil.
To say that something is good or evil is to set up yourself as God.
That is the ONLY sin that a person can commit, according to the Bible: Legislating morality.
What do you think of this interpretation?
Is the Law of Christ not superior to that which Paulie wrote?
Here's what I see. Law and Word = Torah, the words are interchangeable. Thus the man of LAWLESSness is man without Torah, the Word, the Adamic spirit of man, the carnal mind.
Which is why it says the carnal mind is not subject to the law, nor indeed can be. It is anti law by nature, and this is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil = eating of the showbread without the light of the candlestick = using the carnal mind to interpret that which it is opposed to by it's very nature. No light = darkness.
There were 2 trees in the midst (inner court) of the garden. Those 2 trees are the candlestick and the table of showbread. One of them has a serpent in it; guess which one.
Yeshua was the Torah made flesh or another way to put it, Torah made into visibility, as it is a spiritual law hidden in natural constructs.
In the beginning was the Word/Torah/Holy of Holies
And the Word/Torah was with G-d/inner court-G-d with us, Emmanuel
And the Word/Torah was G-d/outer court = And Yeshua was the Torah/Word made flesh
Do you think that it is possible that when the "law" is discussed in the New Testament, it is not necessarily some kind of vague "mystical" thing. I'm not referring the Law of Christ. I am referring to the law that Paul writes about. I think it is possible that he is referring to all the laws of the Hebrews, particularly the idea of Moral Law in general. But this was tied into their civil laws. All of their laws were considered moral laws, handed down from God.
But the point of Jesus Christ was that he questioned the whole idea of Moral Laws. The idea that a man could write a law and have it be a standard of morality for all men. I think this was the sin of Adam. (As all are dead in Adam, all are alive in Jesus Christ, paraphrased). There was really one sin, that is the sin of writing moral laws on which to judge people. That was the one sin that Adam and Even committed: Knowledge of Good and Evil.
To say that something is good or evil is to set up yourself as God.
That is the ONLY sin that a person can commit, according to the Bible: Legislating morality.
What do you think of this interpretation?
Ridiculous beyond words, God is the One that wrote the moral law upon our hearts and He gave us a conscience to determine right from wrong and He will judge us by His law. So to say discriminating between good and evil is a sin, is in itself a horrendous sin. God calls us to judge a righteous judgment, not to shut up our consciences and pretend we are above good and evil or any standard of morality, we are not. Christ said that no jot or tittle will pass from the law until all will be fulfilled, so yes the law is important and judging good from evil is important!
The "Law" was the 613 Mitzvot of Torah. No, Law can never be perfect and what Jesus taught was that what was needed for community with God and man is the thing that fulfills what should be the PURPOSE of law: a commitment to the well[bing of everyone in any situation. Laws are food for quick reference, but ALWAYS subject to that concern for everyone.
assuming I'm understanding the question correctly in the first place, I think that Paul is mainly referring to the "law of Moses" as interpreted by the Pharisees that paid the utmost attention to the strict observance of the "letter of the law" in regards to ritual "purity", the proper observance of the Sabbath", and strictly following the dietary restrictions, and the absolute necessity of circumcision to fully become a fully observant and righteous Jew (i.e. the chosen of God).
think Jesus made pointed observations on what can happen when strict observance of the externals of the law and ritual trumps either common sense (is it wrong to get your ox out of the pit on the Sabbath?) or moral good like Jesus healing the sick on the day or the Samaritan helping the man who fallen among thieves while the priest and the Levite passed him by(because they feared ritual impurity by touching a dead man or having their hands "fouled" with blood?). for that matter, He made no friends with conventional observers of the law when he said that in effect that strictly observing the dietary laws is not that effective "because it is not what goes into a man" that causes evil but what comes out of him from a hard heart and an evil mind.
in point of fact, Jesus said that the "whole law and the prophets" is really summed up and fulfilled by loving God and neighbor completely. perhaps when the "law written in stone" intersects with "law written in men's hearts" and in fact serves as a means/a way of believing and acting in love and mercy all is well BUT when the first pre-empts, obscures, or totally replaces the other then there is a deep ethical, moral, religious problem.
in the peace of Christ (and hope the above musings makes some sense and have some relevance).
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 10-19-2016 at 09:59 PM..
Ridiculous beyond words, God is the One that wrote the moral law upon our hearts and He gave us a conscience to determine right from wrong and He will judge us by His law. So to say discriminating between good and evil is a sin, is in itself a horrendous sin. God calls us to judge a righteous judgment, not to shut up our consciences and pretend we are above good and evil or any standard of morality, we are not. Christ said that no jot or tittle will pass from the law until all will be fulfilled, so yes the law is important and judging good from evil is important!
Where does it state that G-d wrote the Law upon your heart?....
Where does it state that G-d wrote the Law upon your heart?....
Romans 2:12-16 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Gills commentary on this verse:
Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,.... Though the Gentiles had not the law in form, written on tables, or in a book, yet they had "the work", the matter, the sum and substance of it in their minds; as appears by the practices of many of them, in their external conversation. The moral law, in its purity and perfection, was written on the heart of Adam in his first creation; was sadly obliterated by his sin and fall; upon several accounts, and to answer various purposes, a system of laws was written on tables of stone for the use of the Israelites; and in regeneration the law is reinscribed on the hearts of God's people; and even among the Gentiles, and in their hearts, there are some remains of the old law and light of nature, which as by their outward conduct appears, so by the inward motions of their minds,
their conscience also bearing witness; for, as the Jews say (r) , "the soul of a man witnesses in him"; for, or against him:
and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another; and this the Heathens themselves acknowledge, when they (s) speak of
"tameion dikasthrion kai krithrion thv suneidhsewv, "the conclave, tribunal and judgment of conscience"; and which they call , "the most righteous judge": whose judgment reason receives, and gives its suffrage to, whether worthy of approbation or reproof; when it reads in the memory as if written on a table the things that are done, and then beholding the law as an exemplar, pronounces itself either worthy of honour or dishonour.''
Romans 2:12-16 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Gills commentary on this verse:
Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,.... Though the Gentiles had not the law in form, written on tables, or in a book, yet they had "the work", the matter, the sum and substance of it in their minds; as appears by the practices of many of them, in their external conversation. The moral law, in its purity and perfection, was written on the heart of Adam in his first creation; was sadly obliterated by his sin and fall; upon several accounts, and to answer various purposes, a system of laws was written on tables of stone for the use of the Israelites; and in regeneration the law is reinscribed on the hearts of God's people; and even among the Gentiles, and in their hearts, there are some remains of the old law and light of nature, which as by their outward conduct appears, so by the inward motions of their minds,
their conscience also bearing witness; for, as the Jews say (r) , "the soul of a man witnesses in him"; for, or against him:
and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another; and this the Heathens themselves acknowledge, when they (s) speak of
"tameion dikasthrion kai krithrion thv suneidhsewv, "the conclave, tribunal and judgment of conscience"; and which they call , "the most righteous judge": whose judgment reason receives, and gives its suffrage to, whether worthy of approbation or reproof; when it reads in the memory as if written on a table the things that are done, and then beholding the law as an exemplar, pronounces itself either worthy of honour or dishonour.''
That doesn't say G-d has written it on their hearts...You misunderstand that verse...
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