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Originally posted by my brother in The Lord, Eric Stetson
For several years, I have wrestled with the question of the cross: Was it really necessary for Jesus to die on the cross so that people could be saved from sin? If so, then what does that say about God (i.e. that He is bloodthirsty and legalistic)? But if the cross was *not* necessary, then does that mean Jesus was merely a great philosoph...er? Why, then, identify specifically with the Christian spiritual tradition, in which the metaphysical power of the cross plays such a central role?
The view I currently hold is that the cross of Christ was necessary to take away people's fear of unforgiveness. Ancient civilizations, both Jewish and Gentile, believed in the necessity of bloody sacrifices to obtain God's forgiveness and blessing. In Judaism, it was the blood of animals; in some other comm...only practiced religions, it was the blood of humans -- even babies! We read about this in the Bible: the cult of Moloch, for example, which was popular among the Canaanites. Even on the other side of the world, in the early American civilizations, human sacrifice was commonly practiced.
The cross of Christ functioned as God's way of freeing humanity from the spiritual and moral perversion of blood-sacrifice-based religion. Jesus assumed the role of the final, ultimate sacrifice to end all sacrifices. This was an act of divine role-playing for a great purpose. It was not an act of penal substitution or a legally necessary act. God would not have punished humans in an eternal hell if Jesus had not died on a cross; God's mercy and grace is not contingent on a legal action. But the cross *was* historically and spiritually necessary. Without it, humanity would have continued to believe that God needs offerings of blood in order to forgive us of our sins -- a falsehood that impugned God's character and led to the systematic slaughter of innocent beings.
I believe that Jesus died BECAUSE of our sin. I do not accept that he was a human sacrifice to God in the earthly sense or the pagan sense. His sacrifice was spiritual in that he subjected himself to die at the hands of sinners and enemies and by that SIN'S power was finished. Jesus reversed the curse as I see it. His blood speaks BETTER THINGS than that of Abel's according to the book of Hebrews. And ours should too.
The blood of Christ has, as it were, supernatural DNA. That's one way to say it. Who can fully understand what happened at the cross? No one mere mortal individual -- but God reveals it to us as we thirst and as we are able to receive the gloriousness contained therein.
Jesus was SLAIN (violently murdered or butchered) before the FOUNDATION (disposition and opposition) of the WORLD (inhabitants).
[It] appears to me that the death of Jesus was brought about through human volition, given the political and religious powers of the day. Although at the same time, Jesus was fully aware that his message and what he represented to the status quo, would ultimately lead to a violent death. But his death was not divinely foreordained as a penal substitution, whereas, there is no greater love than to lay one's own life down for that of another. Many are fixated on Jesus' death, and will accept nothing but the blood of Jesus, as "they know not, what they do." Although, there is only ONE whose undeniable innocence (not an ordinary victim) was able to change the process of scapegoating (a slaughterhouse religion having a carnivorous diet). And it is a saving act of God; a victory over the powers of this world (men) and a defeat of death, reversing it through his Life and Resurrection.
[It] is the gospel which was/is/will end all bloodshed, not that of merely exchanging victims (bulls and goats for that of Christ as a substitution). It was a sacrifice to end all sacrificing. Let's not make it a prescription for suffering death, but ONE of LIFE more ABUNDANTLY. Through personal experience, the human race will learn how deadly and destructive their choices have been.
I believe we should follow Christ into death for that is the Way God ordained that would lead us to eternal life. It is a baptism that we are appointed to. I don't think you and I agree on that point. And it's not something I would argue about vehemently because I know if it is true, eventually you will understand it. However, I just wanted to make that point here, now, in this thread. Just as Jesus was subjected to the whims of evil men - so are we. People have the power to take our earthly life for no good reason. How is that for being subjected to futility?
Death is unavoidable, but the fear of death cannot hold us captive.
Well, the truth is - it does often hold us captive. And that captivity to fear is due to being subjected to mortality. And it is that fear we are to overcome through faith and growing in grace and truth. We also fear not only our own death, but the death of those we love. To say otherwise is, IMO, dishonest. The root of the fear is fear of being separated, fear of being alone, fear of being abandoned, fear of pain, etc.... I don't think denying these things is the way to overcome them. Rather, understanding them and growing in wisdom about spiritual things and growing in faith and grace and spiritual knowledge and wisdom is the way to overcome. You seem to be in denial of your condition of being a mortal. But then again, I don't jump out of airplanes and some do.
Well, the truth is - it does often hold us captive. And that captivity to fear is due to being subjected to mortality. And it is that fear we are to overcome through faith and growing in grace and truth. We also fear not only our own death, but the death of those we love. To say otherwise is, IMO, dishonest. The root of the fear is fear of being separated, fear of being alone, fear of being abandoned, fear of pain, etc.... I don't think denying these things is the way to overcome them. Rather, understanding them and growing in wisdom about spiritual things and growing in faith and grace and spiritual knowledge and wisdom is the way to overcome. You seem to be in denial of your condition of being a mortal. But then again, I don't jump out of airplanes and some do.
Dishonest and in denial? You obviously have not read all my posts on the subject. I have faced death and that of loved ones, but you are entitled to your opinion. However, it would be a mindless act to exit an airplane without a parachute. Unless of course, you had a death wish! For those who are afraid of heights? I would suggest they stay on solid ground; until they can overcome their fears. In all honesty, I have no fear of separation, that of being alone or abandoned, nor that of pain and death itself. Consequentially, I do not fear judgment, either. Although, that doesn't mean others are without fear. Therefore, I am partially in agreement with you:
"It can be difficult to see beyond our sorrow, when a loved one becomes a memory; but the memory becomes a treasure, as they are never far from our heart."
Jesus a philosopher? Kant, Russell, Socrates, Plato were philosophers.
He was a teacher of reality.
People say he died for them.
I say he lived for me, walked on water for me,manifested wine, fish and bread for me,
healed for me, was raised from the
dead for me, dispersed himself into the air for me.
Why? To reveal that "this" is not what it appears to be and to show me my possibilities...
How I could survive happily here...to show me the ropes,
And to show what is more important than anything, love...which is the Nature of our Father.
This was so important to him...that he teach that the Father is love and
we can dwell in His Kingdom.
(That was all he talked about when he came out of his 40 day fast alone in a place that was
as rugged as Utah! Kingdom, Kingdom...it was all about the Kingdom...I am more in that
Kingdom than anyone I presently know. Anything I can do to aid anyone else, just ask me...I can
tell u how I did it.)
Originally posted by my brother in The Lord, Eric Stetson
For several years, I have wrestled with the question of the cross: Was it really necessary for Jesus to die on the cross so that people could be saved from sin? If so, then what does that say about God (i.e. that He is bloodthirsty and legalistic)? But if the cross was *not* necessary, then does that mean Jesus was merely a great philosoph...er? Why, then, identify specifically with the Christian spiritual tradition, in which the metaphysical power of the cross plays such a central role?
The view I currently hold is that the cross of Christ was necessary to take away people's fear of unforgiveness. Ancient civilizations, both Jewish and Gentile, believed in the necessity of bloody sacrifices to obtain God's forgiveness and blessing. In Judaism, it was the blood of animals; in some other comm...only practiced religions, it was the blood of humans -- even babies! We read about this in the Bible: the cult of Moloch, for example, which was popular among the Canaanites. Even on the other side of the world, in the early American civilizations, human sacrifice was commonly practiced.
The cross of Christ functioned as God's way of freeing humanity from the spiritual and moral perversion of blood-sacrifice-based religion. Jesus assumed the role of the final, ultimate sacrifice to end all sacrifices. This was an act of divine role-playing for a great purpose. It was not an act of penal substitution or a legally necessary act. God would not have punished humans in an eternal hell if Jesus had not died on a cross; God's mercy and grace is not contingent on a legal action. But the cross *was* historically and spiritually necessary. Without it, humanity would have continued to believe that God needs offerings of blood in order to forgive us of our sins -- a falsehood that impugned God's character and led to the systematic slaughter of innocent beings.
1.) ''Was it really necessary for Jesus to die on the cross so that people could be saved from sin?''
Yes, it was necessary for Jesus to die on the cross in order to save man from the penalty of sin. In the Revelation given to John by Jesus, John was taken up into heaven in a vision where he saw and heard the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders as they sang to the Lamb.
Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You (Jesus) to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
2.) If so, then what does that say about God (i.e. that He is bloodthirsty and legalistic)? ''
No. What it says about God is that He cannot overlook any violation of His perfect righteousness and therefore had to impose a penalty on sin. It also means that because God does not desire that anyone perish because of sin He provided the means by which man could be saved from that penalty.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
3.) ''The view I currently hold...''
I prefer God's revealed view. Rev. 5:9 is but one of a number of places where it is stated that Jesus purchased our salvation with His death on the Cross. (Psalm 34:22; Gal. 3:13; Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18-19)
Jesus went to the cross according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
Phil. 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8]Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9] For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Luke 22:41 And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42] saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-19-2013 at 09:18 AM..
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