Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
they have the story wrong.
The description of sin is wrong.
We are born ignorant, not sinful.
Jesus came to teach. The final lesson was the cross, but it was never intended to be a standalone lesson, anymore than one lesson out of 180 classes in a chemistry class is.
What just happened there? If you tell me the bible is like a finger pointing to something and not the something I will lose my mind.
they have the story wrong.
The description of sin is wrong.
We are born ignorant, not sinful.
Jesus came to teach. The final lesson was the cross, but it was never intended to be a standalone lesson, anymore than one lesson out of 180 classes in a chemistry class is.
That's why evangelicals prefer their own personal Cliff's Notes version of the Bible. They can ignore the parts they don't like.
I am not wrong, but the nonsense you fill peoples heads with is absurdity at its best.
You are wrong and have been shown to be.
Quote:
And I believe this was mentioned by me on several occasions.
Including the aspect of the messengers - who weren't angels.
Yes, they are angels. They are the same 'spirits' which Peter wrote about in 1 Peter 3:19-20 who he says are now in prison. They are the angels that were involved in the Genesis 6 affair. That the sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6 are angels is so stated in the book of Enoch which while not canonical was written during the intertestamental period by Jews who knew the Old Testament scriptures.
And you avoided addressing the fact that the word aidios in Jude 1:6 speaks of these angels being kept in 'eternal' bonds under darkness UNTIL the judgment of the great day.
If aidios means eternal in this verse then this group of angels is kept in bonds of darkness for an unending period, an eternal period of duration.
If on the other hand aidios doesn't mean 'eternal' in this verse then you can't use your argument that if punishment were eternal than the word aidios would have been used.
Quote:
Quote:
Oh, I understand, it's those who remain or are kept in darkness that don't.
You obviously do not understand.
The punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:41 is of aiónios duration. But this follows a period of aidios duration in which the angels in Jude 1:6 are kept in bonds of darkness awaiting the great day of judgment at which point they will be sent into aiónios judgment.
Again if aidios means eternal in Jude 1:6 then aiónios in Matthew 25:41 cannot be of less duration than aidios duration. If aidios in Jude 1:6 does not mean eternal than your argument that if eternal duration was meant then the word aidios would have been used, is a false argument.
Quote:
Quote:
Correct to the bold, but not to your interpretation.
No, it doesn't, it's merely that which is beyond the horizon.
Again, you have chosen not to address the fact that aiónios is stated by BDAG to have in its semantic range the meaning of unending duration. You also have chosen to ignore the fact that Philo used the word aioni to refer to eternity.
Quote:
Quote:
No, they do not, but you are free to believe your eternal damnation theology.
Until, the day your chains are removed.
Despite your denials, in the right context both aidios and aiónios have the meaning of unending duration.
You don't know the Greek language, or if you do then you are being less than truthful regarding your claims about the word aiónios.
So, G-d wasn't holding sins against folks back then?...What changed where someone had to die on a cross?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
nothing changed.
they have the story wrong.
The description of sin is wrong.
We are born ignorant, not sinful.
Jesus came to teach. The final lesson was the cross, but it was never intended to be a standalone lesson, anymore than one lesson out of 180 classes in a chemistry class is.
Exactly.
An understanding that a God who is love, is wrathful and in need of blood sacrifices in order to be able to forgive, is a misunderstanding. It's a misunderstanding that has had people in its grip for thousands of years.
Exactly.
An understanding that a God who is love, is wrathful and in need of blood sacrifices in order to be able to forgive, is a misunderstanding. It's a misunderstanding that has had people in its grip for thousands of years.
Amen! It is a travesty of human vanity and hubris that perverts and corrupts Christ's message of love and Good News.
You, Sir, have been so indoctrinated that it has blinded you to the truth. For from the days of John the Baptist, until now, the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence. What God wanted was love, faith, humility, mercy and righteousness - things the law did not provide for, instead, it murdered the innocent.
Quote:
Yes, they are angels. They are the same 'spirits' which Peter wrote about in 1 Peter 3:19-20 who he says are now in prison. They are the angels that were involved in the Genesis 6 affair. That the sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6 are angels is so stated in the book of Enoch which while not canonical was written during the intertestamental period by Jews who knew the Old Testament scriptures.
And you avoided addressing the fact that the word aidios in Jude 1:6 speaks of these angels being kept in 'eternal' bonds under darkness UNTIL the judgment of the great day.
If aidios means eternal in this verse then this group of angels is kept in bonds of darkness for an unending period, an eternal period of duration.
If on the other hand aidios doesn't mean 'eternal' in this verse then you can't use your argument that if punishment were eternal than the word aidios would have been used.
You obviously do not understand.
I understand a great deal more than you give me credit for, but that's just your way of refusing to see anything beyond what you have been taught to believe.
Quote:
The punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:41 is of aiónios duration. But this follows a period of aidios duration in which the angels in Jude 1:6 are kept in bonds of darkness awaiting the great day of judgment at which point they will be sent into aiónios judgment.
Again if aidios means eternal in Jude 1:6 then aiónios in Matthew 25:41 cannot be of less duration than aidios duration. If aidios in Jude 1:6 does not mean eternal than your argument that if eternal duration was meant then the word aidios would have been used, is a false argument.
And, you failed to take into account that this speaks to that of his eternal power and divine nature, not to that of an unending period of time.
Quote:
Again, you have chosen not to address the fact that aiónios is stated by BDAG to have in its semantic range the meaning of unending duration. You also have chosen to ignore the fact that Philo used the word aioni to refer to eternity.
Despite your denials, in the right context both aidios and aiónios have the meaning of unending duration.
You don't know the Greek language, or if you do then you are being less than truthful regarding your claims about the word aiónios.
You rely to much on what others say, and you are not seeking the truth for yourself.
You, Sir, have been so indoctrinated that it has blinded you to the truth. For from the days of John the Baptist, until now, the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence. What God wanted was love, faith, humility, mercy and righteousness - things the law did not provide for, instead, it murdered the innocent.
I understand a great deal more than you give me credit for, but that's just your way of refusing to see anything beyond what you have been taught to believe.
And, you failed to take into account that this speaks to that of his eternal power and divine nature, not to that of an unending period of time.
You rely to much on what others say, and you are not seeking the truth for yourself.
Your 1st, 2nd, and 4th comments do not address the issue at hand which is whether or not the noun aiónios can refer to a period of unending duration.
As for your 3d comment, you are the one who stated with regard to duration, that if an unending period of time was in view then the word Aidios woud have been used.
''If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used.'' Post #102
You now appear to be attempting to distance yourself from that comment.
Nevertheless, in Jude 1:6 the word aidios refers to a duration of time in which the angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode are being kept under aidios bonds until the time comes for the great day of judgment.
Enoch 10:6-9 to which Jude 1:6 alludes, puts it like this.
Enoch 10:6 Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there.
Enoch 10:7 Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness;
Enoch 10:8 There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light.
Enoch 10:9 And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire.
As for the word aiónios and its cognates, it has already been shown that in certain contexts it refers to an unending period of duration. An excellent example is in Revelation 1:18.
Revelation 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
In the Greek the words for ever and ever are εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων - eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn - to the ages of the ages.
In Revelation 1:18 the word aiónios is used of the resurrected Jesus who had been dead, but now is in a resurrected body of immortality and will never die again. The word aiónios is used to express the unending duration of Jesus' life after His resurrection. Since the resurrected Jesus can never die again, aiónios can in this context only be referring to unending duration.
And that refutes the argument I've seen Universalists on this forum use which goes something like this. ''Aiónios doesn't mean eternal life, but refers to age during life which will be replaced by unending life due to being resurrected in an immortal body.'' But as seen, in Revelation 1:18 aiónios is used for the life that Jesus has after having been resurrected.
The claim that Universalists make that the noun aiónios can't refer to eternal or unending duration simply is not true.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
