Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't know if you would say I view what you said in a negative light. It just doesn't make sense to me.
In my head, to say you need to experience darkness to understand what light is, is like saying:
You need to have an affair in order to understand faithfulness to your spouse.
You need to bully someone in order to understand gentleness.
You need to scream at your employee in order to understand patience.
You need to embezzle from your employer in order to understand generosity.
You need to work to destroy someone's reputation in order to understand kindness.
You need to kill someone to understand love.
Why? How would doing those things give you (or the person on the receiving end of your actions) a deeper understanding? Why don't you think that remaining faithful would give you a better understanding of faithfulness? Or that being kind and patient and gentle will give you a better understanding of those things? Etc.
So, again, I'm not trying to be negative toward your view. I just don't understand it.
Ahh, but Pleroo... you have the luxury of being able to say these things living in an existence where you ARE immersed in and are aware of the darkness versus the light.
(And to your examples you listed: No. You do not need to do do those things at all.) Pleroo, it could be the very THOUGHT of those things, that that DARKNESS CAN come to fruition of you allow it. This is where the freedom comes into play. No, you do NOT have to bully someone in order to understand gentleness, but the knowledge of good and evil in your brain, in your soul, this KNOWLEDGE is what allows you to GROW in maturity. You take the knowledge of good and put it into ACTION and you choose gentleness and kindness OVER evil. You grow. Some human beings will take this knowledge of evil and put it into ACTION, and this is where suffering comes from. We are all learning together. What affects one affects all. The suffering is not from God. It is our maturing and growing in Love by the choices that we each make. Perhaps all human beings could have decided to choose Good over Evil in all instances, but this is what you get when you have individuals, and individuals who are maturing. We come from all different backgrounds, and the knowledge of good and evil has all affected us in a completely UNIQUE way. The manifestations are what is teaching us. ALL of us. The books of life are our own unique experience. This profound learning will last us an eternity. Which I believe is what it was MEANT to do, so that one day, all will live in harmony FOREVER.
This is just my perspective. I completely understand that it may seem odd.
Pneuma, Thanks for your response. I'll be back later to address your post.
I think sparrow's point is more a matter of a deepening appreciation.
Being truly hungry and thirsty makes one truly appreciate food and water. Wandering around stubbing one's toe in the dark brings about appreciation for a handy light switch and a working bulb. Winter in Canada brings an appreciation for warm clothing or being inside. Feeling unloved can make a hug life-changing.
In other words, experiencing a negative brings about a deeper understanding and appreciation of a positive.
Yes. And I especially like your example in the bold.
Ahh, but Pleroo... you have the luxury of being able to say these things living in an existence where you ARE immersed in and are aware of the darkness versus the light.
(And to your examples you listed: No. You do not need to do do those things at all.) Pleroo, it could be the very THOUGHT of those things, that that DARKNESS CAN come to fruition of you allow it. This is where the freedom comes into play. No, you do NOT have to bully someone in order to understand gentleness, but the knowledge of good and evil in your brain, in your soul, this KNOWLEDGE is what allows you to GROW in maturity. You take the knowledge of good and put it into ACTION and you choose gentleness and kindness OVER evil. You grow. Some human beings will take this knowledge of evil and put it into ACTION, and this is where suffering comes from. We are all learning together. What affects one affects all. The suffering is not from God. It is our maturing and growing in Love by the choices that we each make. Perhaps all human beings could have decided to choose Good over Evil in all instances, but this is what you get when you have individuals, and individuals who are maturing. We come from all different backgrounds, and the knowledge of good and evil has all affected us in a completely UNIQUE way. The manifestations are what is teaching us. ALL of us. The books of life are our own unique experience. This profound learning will last us an eternity. Which I believe is what it was MEANT to do, so that one day, all will live in harmony FOREVER.
This is just my perspective. I completely understand that it may seem odd.
Okay* [to the section of your post that I bolded], but this doesn't seem to fit with what you said before, when you said we must make the choice to disobey [choose evil] in order to reach a deeper understanding.:
sparrow: "I see that tree of knowledge of good and evil as a doorway into a deeper understanding. We have NO CLUE what is on the other side of that door. But perhaps we must be the one to make that choice to disobey. The ACT of disobeying opens that door."
*I actually have some thoughts about "the knowledge of good and evil", but I think they would muddy the conversation, so I'll leave it alone for now.
If God is perfect and all-knowing, then the need for Jesus and the New Testament doesn't make sense. It suggests that God tried things one way in the Old Testament but then realized He made things too hard. If Jesus was always the plan, why give the Jews a 1001 arcane rules to follow in the first place? In essence, Jesus and the New Testament almost appear to be a mea culpa on God's part.
It kind of reminds me of a professor he realized he made the exam too hard (or that his students are too stupid), so he offers an easy retest.
How can this be explained or rationalized?
I look at Jesus as an investment that God made. He invested his most valuable asset in to the world. Christians are the return on that investment.
Okay* [to the section of your post that I bolded], but this doesn't seem to fit with what you said before, when you said we must make the choice to disobey [choose evil] in order to reach a deeper understanding.:
sparrow: "I see that tree of knowledge of good and evil as a doorway into a deeper understanding. We have NO CLUE what is on the other side of that door. But perhaps we must be the one to make that choice to disobey. The ACT of disobeying opens that door."
*I actually have some thoughts about "the knowledge of good and evil", but I think they would muddy the conversation, so I'll leave it alone for now.
Hi Pleroo, We didn't know what was on the other side of the door. We didn't know what it really WAS to "disobey" until we actually did it. Which then opened up the door. I don't really believe that "evil" is the right choice of words when talking about choosing to partake of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Some make it out to be EVIL! EVIL! but I think the actual choice was a bit more benign. The choice had to be ours of our own free will. And it is a deeper understanding. There is no way that it cannot be, in my eyes.
There is definitely room for debate in my view of whether this was the PLAN.... or if this was something BUILT INTO the plan by the necessity for free will.
Hi Pleroo, We didn't know what was on the other side of the door. We didn't know what it really WAS to "disobey" until we actually did it. Which then opened up the door. I don't really believe that "evil" is the right choice of words when talking about choosing to partake of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Some make it out to be EVIL! EVIL! but I think the actual choice was a bit more benign. The choice had to be ours of our own free will. And it is a deeper understanding. There is no way that it cannot be, in my eyes. There is definitely room for debate in my view of whether this was the PLAN.... or if this was something BUILT INTO the plan by the necessity for free will.
Okay, so to you, "free will" is the ability to know the difference between good and evil, and to make a choice between them?
And having free will was absolutely necessary for humans to evolve and grow and gain deeper understanding,
and so it was something humanity (collectively) decided to experience or else that God planned for us?
And, sometimes choosing evil over good was just an inevitable byproduct of having free will?
I'm just trying to make sure I'm following you before I go further. Thanks for your patience.
Okay, so to you, "free will" is the ability to know the difference between good and evil, and to make a choice between them?
And having free will was absolutely necessary for humans to evolve and grow and gain deeper understanding,
and so it was something humanity (collectively) decided to experience or else that God planned for us?
And, sometimes choosing evil over good was just an inevitable byproduct of having free will?
I'm just trying to make sure I'm following you before I go further. Thanks for your patience.
Hey there, Those are great questions! And I think will help explain my views a little better.
I'll be back on later tonight to answer.
Have a good day,
peace,
sparrow
Sparrow, maybe it would help to share my own thoughts on this, just so you have some idea where I'm coming from...
Let me take this back to the allegorical story of the Tree of Knowledge, and the Tree of Life.
This is what is making sense to me, but by no means do I think that it's the be all and end all, and maybe putting it out here will garner some responses that help me to see more clearly. So, aisi:
The "free will" choice we are given is either
1. to abide in God (Tree of Life) as our Reality, and through remaining in conscious awareness of the kingdom/Christ within, to be conformed to who we are, and are to become. This is real learning.
or
2. to choose to abide in a belief in Duality (Tree of Knowledge), which automatically separates us from God (our Life) in our own minds, and convinces us that we must gain a deeper understanding through experiencing both good and evil, rather than through abiding in God.
I think we were intended to grow through the first (this is a focus on what is Real and True), but we often choose the second, which is just a casting of shadows because it means we've turned our backs on the LIGHT.
This sounds all spiritual mumbo-jumbo, I'm afraid, but if anyone can grasp what I'm trying to communicate, I'm pretty sure it's you.
I understood the light, before I ever experienced the darkness.
Really? You must have been born omniscient.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
