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With umpteen thousands of different Christian denominations, all at variance with one another over some aspects of biblical doctrine, I think it's fair to say most believers don't understand it very well. In fact, the sheer number of different sects is very nearly proof of that.
However, some unbelievers are bible scholars and have made it their life's work to achieve a much deeper understanding of it than most Christians.
If I wanted a realistic interpretation of the OT, I'd consult learned Jews. If I wanted the same for the NT, I'd consult secular biblical scholars.
Exactly
And to what does the OP refer as to belief and understanding? Something that agrees with what his religion says? or what he says?
I understand what the Egyptian Book of the Dead says, but I also see it as mythology. A cultural record of someone's belief and interpretation of the world around them, of life as they experienced it. What makes the Bible or the Bhagtiva-Gita any different?
There is this really really great work of fiction by James Joyce. It is called Ulysses I loved reading it. It was though, pure fiction, and reading this, I understood that. Same as with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. Great book. More entertaining than the Bible, and a tad more interesting too. And ultimately, a visit to a book of the month club would no doubt render the same number of different interpretations as the number of attendees. And in some way, all opinions and interpretations would be as valid as different, as they would exist due to one's level of insight, interest, education, and most importantly, life experiences.
In a way, we atheists have something that most Christians on here will have to admit: Several of us have read the entire Bible, cover to cover, and most Christians have not. I think of the quote made by the great Atheist leader Penn Jillette
Bottom line is, religions, especially fundamentalists, seem to try to force their interpretations and their beliefs onto others. They seem to want to force the Bible onto others as "God's word"
IF the Bible were all that great, perhaps people would realize that and not have to have it "forced" upon them.
Belief by coercion and fear is not healthy belief. And I see little in Evangelical Christianity that is indicative or psycho-social health.
If you're going to attack me personally, I'd suggest you at least get your Scripture references right. I mean....we can't make this stuff up. LOL.
Romans 5:18 is: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."
I believe you were referencing Romans 5:8, which states that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
You also fail to see the fact that God does clearly hate (Romans 9). Yet, you tell us he hates no one.
He commands us to not sin, but he also allows for it. He, in his goodness, died for us, while we were yet sinners.
This is no personal attack, it is correcting you by the scriptures. You don't like it, that is your problem
Who is making this stuff up,? You are by believing contrary to the scriptures that God loved(not loves) sinners.
Yet and still makes no difference at all, and the most trustworthy translation on the bible hub and biblegateway, say Still not yet, and whether it is still or yet,it does not detract or change the fact of Romans 5:8. I also know that you believe the world is sinful and you know that John 3:16 says that God loves the world that you call sinful.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This is no personal attack, it is correcting you by the scriptures. You don't like it, that is your problem
Really? I'm pretty sure if I were to say you or someone else was not a Christian I might get in trouble for it. But oh well....
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Who is making this stuff up,? You are by believing contrary to the scriptures that God loved(not loves) sinners.
Romans 9 says he loved Jacob and hated Esau. You can play games all you want, but that's what it says.
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity."
I'm sure you'll have some excuse for why that isn't actually true...but that's what the text actually says. And it's not the BF paraphrase, either. I actually quote scripture. You should try it.
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Yet and still makes no difference at all, and the most trustworthy translation on the bible hub and biblegateway, say Still not yet, and whether it is still or yet,it does not detract or change the fact of Romans 5:8. I also know that you believe the world is sinful and you know that John 3:16 says that God loves the world that you call sinful.
OK? So you DID mean to quote 5:8? OK. Cool. You should have said that before.
Yes....while were still, yet, whatever word you choose to use, Christ died of rus. Your point? He also hates sinners.
That's the amazing thing....he actually died for those that he hates. Incredible, isn't it?
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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And? Do you mean to try to play this verse against Romans 9 or Psalm 5:5? Does one supercede the other? Why do you attack Scripture? Why not reconcile the 2 verses?
Really? I'm pretty sure if I were to say you or someone else was not a Christian I might get in trouble for it. But oh well....
Romans 9 says he loved Jacob and hated Esau. You can play games all you want, but that's what it says.
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity."
I'm sure you'll have some excuse for why that isn't actually true...but that's what the text actually says. And it's not the BF paraphrase, either. I actually quote scripture. You should try it.
OK? So you DID mean to quote 5:8? OK. Cool. You should have said that before.
Yes....while were still, yet, whatever word you choose to use, Christ died of rus. Your point? He also hates sinners.
That's the amazing thing....he actually died for those that he hates. Incredible, isn't it?
And? Do you mean to try to play this verse against Romans 9 or Psalm 5:5? Does one supercede the other? Why do you attack Scripture? Why not reconcile the 2 verses?
Did i say you were not a christian?. I have said you do not believe the scriptures, you do not have to believe them to be a christian, it is you that believes you have to.
John 3:16 For Go so loved the world that Baptist Fundy believes is sinful and hated by God. You have taken 2 isolated bibles that mean nothing remotely to what you are saying. In fact Esau displayed towards his brother greater love, grace and mercy then you have ever known or seen. Esau could completely wroth with him when he met years later, no he didn't , he displayed the nature of God to him.
How you can believe in a hateful God that cannot create evil is truly beyond me . Hating is evil, period. We are all a reflection of what we believe, especially the God we believe in.
Are you even aware that Jesus to love your enemies. In other words win them over by loving them. Do you understand that is exactly Jesus did? We love him because he first loved us( even you when you were at your worst).
I will carry this conversation and expose your unbelief in the scriptures when i return back to the US over the weekend.
How you can believe in a hateful God that cannot create evil is truly beyond me . Hating is evil, period. We are all a reflection of what we believe, especially the God we believe in.
Are you even aware that Jesus said to love your enemies. In other words win them over by loving them. Do you understand that is exactly Jesus did? We love him because he first loved us( even you when you were at your worst).
I'll never understand why most Christians believe that 'A God of Love; perfect without error', is actually capable of hate (And jealousy, vanity, anger, psychopathic tendencies, etc)
Either God IS perfect (& we're not evolved enough to see that in the design) or, if the Christians are correct, we were created by an inept psychopath & we're all up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
This contradiction played on my mind more than anything else since I was a child.
It'll never cease to amaze me that Christians accept this contradiction without question.
I'm glad to assert, & I must say rather relieved, that there is no hateful, vain, angry, judgemental, vengeful, jealous psychopathic God that deserves to be feared. But you knew that already
John 3:16 For Go so loved the world that Baptist Fundy believes is sinful and hated by God.
Amazing, isn't it? God actually hates sinners, but he chose to die for them.
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You have taken 2 isolated bibles that mean nothing remotely to what you are saying. In fact Esau displayed towards his brother greater love, grace and mercy then you have ever known or seen. Esau could completely wroth with him when he met years later, no he didn't , he displayed the nature of God to him.
Yet, you can't explain why God would die for sinners that he hates. Weird. You choose to ignore it and you make up your own theology instead.
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How you can believe in a hateful God that cannot create evil is truly beyond me . Hating is evil, period. We are all a reflection of what we believe, especially the God we believe in.
I believe what Scripture says about him. God hates sinners. Psalm 5:5. But God also chose to die for sinners to save them.
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Are you even aware that Jesus to love your enemies. In other words win them over by loving them. Do you understand that is exactly Jesus did? We love him because he first loved us( even you when you were at your worst)
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Yup. And we are to do the same. Do you think God is just hoping that he will "win over sinners"? That in our sinful hearts, we have the ability to choose him? Despite what Scriptures says about us being at war with God and children of wrath in our natural state?
This is what Scripture says, not me. I'm sorry you don't actually believe it.
Ephesians 2:1-4 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
The beauty of it is that yes--while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8), even though God hates sinners.
And to take it a step further, in Ephesians 2:4-10, Paul finishes that thought and says this:
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
See that? Faith itself is a gift from God. Because we were sinners that hated him. Yet, he died for us and granted faith to our unbelieving, sinful hearts. He regenerates us and he redeems us in his love.
I'll never understand why most Christians believe that 'A God of Love; perfect without error', is actually capable of hate (And jealousy, vanity, anger, psychopathic tendencies, etc)
Either God IS perfect (& we're not evolved enough to see that in the design) or, if the Christians are correct, we were created by an inept psychopath & we're all up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
This contradiction played on my mind more than anything else since I was a child.
It'll never cease to amaze me that Christians accept this contradiction without question.
I'm glad to assert, & I must say rather relieved, that there is no hateful, vain, angry, judgemental, vengeful, jealous psychopathic God that deserves to be feared. But you knew that already
Because that's what he actually said about himself. I can't understand why people won't actually believe what God said about himself.
I'm saying the opposite, actually. I'm the one arguing for the proper understanding and translation of the word in question. It's based on the context of the sentence. You're the one that is continuing to persist in this crazy notion that it means what it doesn't.
We've been over this. He used a word that can be translated "calamity, disaster, or evil", depending on the context.
Just like you may love Harry Potter, or you may love to bash Christians, or you may love your wife or mother. Same word, different context, and different meaning.
God did not create ontological evil, no. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that he does. Isaiah 45:7 certainly does not say it. I mean...if you actually want to stick to what God actually meant to say in that verse.
But you don't seem to be willing to see that.
Dilly dilly.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I'm saying the opposite, actually. I'm the one arguing for the proper understanding and translation of the word in question. It's based on the context of the sentence. You're the one that is continuing to persist in this crazy notion that it means what it doesn't.
And the "proper translation" is the Christian translation, is it not? As in the way Christians read three references to Jesus in Genesis 3:14-14,
[13] And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
[14] And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
despite the fact that Jesus is nowhere to be seen. The references are there though, if one knows how to correctly interpret the Bible! According to Christians. Because they say so.
To that end it doesn't matter how the Jews translate their own book. It doesn't even matter what the original author intended. All that matters is that Christians know and agree on what it means. Because they say so.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
We've been over this. He used a word that can be translated "calamity, disaster, or evil", depending on the context.
Yes we have been over this. It's just that, just because you make a claim, doesn't mean that claim is valid. The Jews have a word for calamity. That word is אָסוֹן. Or it can be associated with (אֵ יד= aid), misfortune.
For example:
Jer.48:
[16] The calamity of Moab is near to come, and his affliction hasteth fast
In the Hebrew Interlinear Bible this passage reads:
In this case the author originally used both the word calamity and evil in the same sentence. And he clearly does not use the same word to convey the same meaning. Like any author, the author of Jeremiah chose to use the word that most closely approximated his intended meaning. The word the author of Isaiah chose to use in 45:7 was evil (רַע=ro), and NOT calamity.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Just like you may love Harry Potter, or you may love to bash Christians, or you may love your wife or mother. Same word, different context, and different meaning.
When I want to tell someone I love them, I say "I love you," and not "I ardor you," even though the meaning is the same. Like most people I use the word most appropriate to my meaning, because I want my meaning to be clear. Attempting to change the word that the author actually used in Isaiah 25:7 to a word with a distinctly different meaning because you do not like the implications connected to the original word is a bit of a charlatan slight of hand magic trick. But we are under no obligation to buy it. Because the word "evil" is there in Isaiah 45:7 in black and white.
The author of Isaiah 45:7 clearly wrote:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
This reading may not conform to your Christian doctrine, but then the OT was not written to conform to Christian doctrine. The author of Isaiah 45:7 used the word (רַע =ro=evil) because that was the meaning he was intending to convey.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
God did not create ontological evil, no. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that he does. Isaiah 45:7 certainly does not say it. I mean...if you actually want to stick to what God actually meant to say in that verse.
Who did create evil then, in your opinion? We need to get this established because the answer to this question often varies from person to person.
And the "proper translation" is the Christian translation, is it not? As in the way Christians read three references to Jesus in Genesis 3:14-14,
It's the translation that is true. That's it.
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[13] And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
[14] And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
despite the fact that Jesus is nowhere to be seen. The references are there though, if one knows how to correctly interpret the Bible! According to Christians.
To that end it doesn't matter how the Jews translate their own book. It doesn't even matter what the original author intended. All that matters is that Christians know and agree on what it means. Because they say so.
OK. Whatever. Don't believe this refers to Jesus? OK. So bie
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Yes we have been over this. It's just that, just because you make a claim, doesn't mean that claim is valid. The Jews have a word for calamity. That word is אָסוֹן. Or it can be associated with (אֵ יד= aid), misfortune.
For example:
Jer.48:
[16] The calamity of Moab is near to come, and his affliction hasteth fast
In the Hebrew Interlinear Bible this passage reads:
In this case the author originally used both the word calamity and evil in the same sentence. And he clearly does not use the same word to convey the same meaning. Like any author, the author of Jeremiah chose to use the word that most closely approximated his intended meaning. The word the author of Isaiah chose to use in 45:7 was evil (רַע=ro), and NOT calamity.
Jeremiah 48 aside.......In Isaiah, in the Hebrew, it isn't ro....it was רַע = ra.
That's the actual word that appears in the Hebrew texts of Isaiah.
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When I want to tell someone I love them, I say "I love you," and not "I ardor you," even though the meaning is the same. Like most people I use the word most appropriate to my meaning, because I want my meaning to be clear. Attempting to change the word that the author actually used in Isaiah 25:7 to a word with a distinctly different meaning because you do not like the implications connected to the original word is a bit of a charlatan slight of hand magic trick. But we are under no obligation to buy it. Because the word "evil" is there in Isaiah 45:7 in black and white.
No one has changed the word used in Isaiah 45:7.
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The author of Isaiah 45:7 clearly wrote:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
This reading may not conform to your Christian doctrine, but then the OT was not written to conform to Christian doctrine. The author of Isaiah 45:7 used the word (רַע =ro=evil) because that was the meaning he was intending to convey.
No. He didn't. He used "ra"
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Who did create evil then, in your opinion? We need to get this established because the answer to this question often varies from person to person.
He said he creates calamity.
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OK. Whatever. Don't believe this refers to Jesus? OK. So bie
