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Certain groups who while acknowledging that Jesus is either God or the Son of God, whatever they take 'Son of God' to mean, nevertheless believe that although He pre-existed there was some point at which He had been created. Two words, prōtotokos (firstborn) in Colossians 1:15, and archē (beginning, ruler) in Revelation 3:14 are used in defense of this argument. But is there any justification for understanding either prōtotokos or archē to mean that the second person of the Trinity had a beginning? Not really.
1.) Looking at prōtotokos (firstborn) first, here is Colossians 1:15.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
The problem with taking this to mean that Jesus before His human existence had a beginning, is that like many words, prōtotokos (firstborn) has a range of meanings. The term 'firstborn' in the Bible does not always refer to someone who is actually the first person to be born into a family. The Hebrew word for 'firstborn' is 'bekor.'
Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim are an example where the firstborn is not the firstborn. Literally speaking, Manasseh was the first son to be born to Joseph. Ephraim was the second son born to Joseph. Yet it is Ephraim who is said to be the firstborn on the basis that it is Ephraim to whom is to be given the greater blessing.
In Jeremiah 31:9 God says that Ephraim is His firstborn.
Jer. 31:9 ''. . .For I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.''
Yet it is seen in Genesis 41:51-52 that Manasseh was the first son born to Joseph.
Genesis 41:51 Joseph named the firstborn Manasseh, "For," he said, "God has made me forget all my trouble and all my father's household." 52] He named the second Ephraim, "For," he said, "God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction."
But the reason why Ephraim is called the firstborn is explained in Genesis 48:12-20. I'll just post verses 18-20 to keep the post short. You can read the entire passage in your Bible. Jacob is blessing Joseph's two sons.
Gen. 48:18 Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head." 19] But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations." 20] He blessed them that day, saying, "By you Israel will pronounce blessing, saying, 'May God make you like Ephraim and Manasseh!'" Thus he put Ephraim before Manasseh.
While Manasseh was born before Ephraim, Ephraim was to be greater than Manasseh and therefore Ephraim was called the firstborn. He was to be greater in preeminence than Manasseh.
And this is how Colossians 1:15 is referring to Jesus as the firstborn. It has nothing to do with the pre-incarnate Jesus ever having been created, but, as explained in Colossians 1:16-18 it has to do with His preeminence. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation because by Him all things were created, and in Him all things hold together. And also, He is the head of the church and He Himself will come to have first place (preeminence) in all things.
2.) Looking now at the word 'archē'' (beginning, ruler), that word doesn't just have the meaning of 'beginning', but also carries the meaning of 'rulership.'
Let's first look at 1 Corinthians 15:24 where archē is used with reference to 'rule.'
1 Cor. 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule (archē) and all authority and power.
Looking then at Revelation 3:14, I'm going to post a few translations of the verse.
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (archē) of the creation of God; [KJV]
But here is how some other translations render the verse.
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, theruler (archē) of God's creation. [NIV]
Revelation 3:14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator (archē) of God's creation. [Berean Study Bible]
Revelation 3:14 "Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator (archē) of God's creation says: [The Holman Christian Standard Bible]
Revelation 3:14 "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator (archē) of God's creation, says this: [ISV]
Revelation 3:14 “And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source (archē) of The Creation of God:” [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]
Revelation 3:14 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief (archē) of the creation of God; [Young's Literal Bible Translation]
Notice that some translations translate the word archē as 'ruler' or 'chief' of God's creation, while others translate archē as the 'originator', 'source', or 'beginning' of God's creation.
If 'beginning' is understood as being the 'source' or 'originator' of God's creation then there's no problem. But some people misunderstand it to mean that Jesus was created by God and then He (Jesus) created everything else. And there's just no legitimate reason for interpreting it in that manner.
Translating archē either in the sense of being the ruler or chief of creation (preeminence), or as the originator or source of creation is valid. Even the word 'beginning' is acceptable if understood to mean the originator or source of creation.
There simply is no valid reason for taking either prōtotokos (firstborn), or archē (beginning, ruler) as meaning that the pre-incarnate Jesus was ever created. The pre-incarnate Word whose human name is Jesus has in fact eternally existed along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
interesting and reasonable linguistic support for the "traditional" or "orthodox" view of Jesus as pre-existent Son of God and sharer in the Divine Nature. blessings and thanks for your good work.
interesting and reasonable linguistic support for the "traditional" or "orthodox" view of Jesus as pre-existent Son of God and sharer in the Divine Nature. blessings and thanks for your good work.
Thanks George. And you're welcome. I got tired of certain people using Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 to back up their claim that Jesus was created, so this is my rebuttal to them. And hopefully it will prove useful to someone or other.
Thanks George. And you're welcome. I got tired of certain people using Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 to back up their claim that Jesus was created, so this is my rebuttal to them. And hopefully it will prove useful to someone or other.
unfortunately to discuss/explain/refute this or that passage in the Scriptures it often does seem to require a knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, or whatever to understand what the writers were really trying to say. that said, then as now a word or phrase might have multiple meanings that might be significantly different depending on cultural context, the situation, and no doubt other subtle things which again may cloud the issue of how we should understand and interpret all sorts of sayings in the Bible----and the apparent and sometimes even the "obvious" meaning and intent to some may not be so apparent or obvious to others .
Certain groups who while acknowledging that Jesus is either God or the Son of God, whatever they take 'Son of God' to mean, nevertheless believe that although He pre-existed there was some point at which He had been created. Two words, prōtotokos (firstborn) in Colossians 1:15, and archē (beginning, ruler) in Revelation 3:14 are used in defense of this argument. But is there any justification for understanding either prōtotokos or archē to mean that the second person of the Trinity had a beginning? Not really.
1.) Looking at prōtotokos (firstborn) first, here is Colossians 1:15.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
The problem with taking this to mean that Jesus before His human existence had a beginning, is that like many words, prōtotokos (firstborn) has a range of meanings. The term 'firstborn' in the Bible does not always refer to someone who is actually the first person to be born into a family. The Hebrew word for 'firstborn' is 'bekor.'
Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim are an example where the firstborn is not the firstborn. Literally speaking, Manasseh was the first son to be born to Joseph. Ephraim was the second son born to Joseph. Yet it is Ephraim who is said to be the firstborn on the basis that it is Ephraim to whom is to be given the greater blessing.
In Jeremiah 31:9 God says that Ephraim is His firstborn.
Jer. 31:9 ''. . .For I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.''
Yet it is seen in Genesis 41:51-52 that Manasseh was the first son born to Joseph.
Genesis 41:51 Joseph named the firstborn Manasseh, "For," he said, "God has made me forget all my trouble and all my father's household." 52] He named the second Ephraim, "For," he said, "God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction."
But the reason why Ephraim is called the firstborn is explained in Genesis 48:12-20. I'll just post verses 18-20 to keep the post short. You can read the entire passage in your Bible. Jacob is blessing Joseph's two sons.
Gen. 48:18 Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head." 19] But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations." 20] He blessed them that day, saying, "By you Israel will pronounce blessing, saying, 'May God make you like Ephraim and Manasseh!'" Thus he put Ephraim before Manasseh.
While Manasseh was born before Ephraim, Ephraim was to be greater than Manasseh and therefore Ephraim was called the firstborn. He was to be greater in preeminence than Manasseh.
And this is how Colossians 1:15 is referring to Jesus as the firstborn. It has nothing to do with the pre-incarnate Jesus ever having been created, but, as explained in Colossians 1:16-18 it has to do with His preeminence. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation because by Him all things were created, and in Him all things hold together. And also, He is the head of the church and He Himself will come to have first place (preeminence) in all things.
2.) Looking now at the word 'archē'' (beginning, ruler), that word doesn't just have the meaning of 'beginning', but also carries the meaning of 'rulership.'
Let's first look at 1 Corinthians 15:24 where archē is used with reference to 'rule.'
1 Cor. 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule (archē) and all authority and power.
Looking then at Revelation 3:14, I'm going to post a few translations of the verse.
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (archē) of the creation of God; [KJV]
But here is how some other translations render the verse.
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, theruler (archē) of God's creation. [NIV]
Revelation 3:14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator (archē) of God's creation. [Berean Study Bible]
Revelation 3:14 "Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator (archē) of God's creation says: [The Holman Christian Standard Bible]
Revelation 3:14 "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator (archē) of God's creation, says this: [ISV]
Revelation 3:14 “And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source (archē) of The Creation of God:” [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]
Revelation 3:14 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief (archē) of the creation of God; [Young's Literal Bible Translation]
Notice that some translations translate the word archē as 'ruler' or 'chief' of God's creation, while others translate archē as the 'originator', 'source', or 'beginning' of God's creation.
If 'beginning' is understood as being the 'source' or 'originator' of God's creation then there's no problem. But some people misunderstand it to mean that Jesus was created by God and then He (Jesus) created everything else. And there's just no legitimate reason for interpreting it in that manner.
Translating archē either in the sense of being the ruler or chief of creation (preeminence), or as the originator or source of creation is valid. Even the word 'beginning' is acceptable if understood to mean the originator or source of creation.
There simply is no valid reason for taking either prōtotokos (firstborn), or archē (beginning, ruler) as meaning that the pre-incarnate Jesus was ever created. The pre-incarnate Word whose human name is Jesus has in fact eternally existed along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Certain groups who while acknowledging that Jesus is either God or the Son of God, whatever they take 'Son of God' to mean, nevertheless believe that although He pre-existed there was some point at which He had been created. Two words, prōtotokos (firstborn) in Colossians 1:15, and archē (beginning, ruler) in Revelation 3:14 are used in defense of this argument. But is there any justification for understanding either prōtotokos or archē to mean that the second person of the Trinity had a beginning? Not really.
1.) Looking at prōtotokos (firstborn) first, here is Colossians 1:15.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
The problem with taking this to mean that Jesus before His human existence had a beginning, is that like many words, prōtotokos (firstborn) has a range of meanings. The term 'firstborn' in the Bible does not always refer to someone who is actually the first person to be born into a family. The Hebrew word for 'firstborn' is 'bekor.'
Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim are an example where the firstborn is not the firstborn. Literally speaking, Manasseh was the first son to be born to Joseph. Ephraim was the second son born to Joseph. Yet it is Ephraim who is said to be the firstborn on the basis that it is Ephraim to whom is to be given the greater blessing.
In Jeremiah 31:9 God says that Ephraim is His firstborn.
Jer. 31:9 ''. . .For I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.''
Yet it is seen in Genesis 41:51-52 that Manasseh was the first son born to Joseph.
Genesis 41:51 Joseph named the firstborn Manasseh, "For," he said, "God has made me forget all my trouble and all my father's household." 52] He named the second Ephraim, "For," he said, "God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction."
But the reason why Ephraim is called the firstborn is explained in Genesis 48:12-20. I'll just post verses 18-20 to keep the post short. You can read the entire passage in your Bible. Jacob is blessing Joseph's two sons.
Gen. 48:18 Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head." 19] But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations." 20] He blessed them that day, saying, "By you Israel will pronounce blessing, saying, 'May God make you like Ephraim and Manasseh!'" Thus he put Ephraim before Manasseh.
While Manasseh was born before Ephraim, Ephraim was to be greater than Manasseh and therefore Ephraim was called the firstborn. He was to be greater in preeminence than Manasseh.
And this is how Colossians 1:15 is referring to Jesus as the firstborn. It has nothing to do with the pre-incarnate Jesus ever having been created, but, as explained in Colossians 1:16-18 it has to do with His preeminence. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation because by Him all things were created, and in Him all things hold together. And also, He is the head of the church and He Himself will come to have first place (preeminence) in all things.
2.) Looking now at the word 'archē'' (beginning, ruler), that word doesn't just have the meaning of 'beginning', but also carries the meaning of 'rulership.'
Let's first look at 1 Corinthians 15:24 where archē is used with reference to 'rule.'
1 Cor. 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule (archē) and all authority and power.
Looking then at Revelation 3:14, I'm going to post a few translations of the verse.
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (archē) of the creation of God; [KJV]
But here is how some other translations render the verse.
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, theruler (archē) of God's creation. [NIV]
Revelation 3:14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator (archē) of God's creation. [Berean Study Bible]
Revelation 3:14 "Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator (archē) of God's creation says: [The Holman Christian Standard Bible]
Revelation 3:14 "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator (archē) of God's creation, says this: [ISV]
Revelation 3:14 “And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source (archē) of The Creation of God:” [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]
Revelation 3:14 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief (archē) of the creation of God; [Young's Literal Bible Translation]
Notice that some translations translate the word archē as 'ruler' or 'chief' of God's creation, while others translate archē as the 'originator', 'source', or 'beginning' of God's creation.
If 'beginning' is understood as being the 'source' or 'originator' of God's creation then there's no problem. But some people misunderstand it to mean that Jesus was created by God and then He (Jesus) created everything else. And there's just no legitimate reason for interpreting it in that manner.
Translating archē either in the sense of being the ruler or chief of creation (preeminence), or as the originator or source of creation is valid. Even the word 'beginning' is acceptable if understood to mean the originator or source of creation.
There simply is no valid reason for taking either prōtotokos (firstborn), or archē (beginning, ruler) as meaning that the pre-incarnate Jesus was ever created. The pre-incarnate Word whose human name is Jesus has in fact eternally existed along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
so I can't find now which words or in what book I was working on . and if I was working on in the old or new testament.
But it was using two words in the same passage.
one word meant pre-existing, before time etc..
the other word meant one from ancient recorded time and .. thus a founding lineage and pre-existing lineage is who he is NOW and it probably happened at his baptism. like it happens at ours.. we become one with the eternal at our baptism for us though it is with increasing amounts .. as we are baptized into his /water / then spirit and then fire. I will work on finding it. I will let you know when I do ..
but to me these words I was reading //// proved that Jehovah and the Son of David become one being and this is also how I observed it when I was young, or it appeared to be the case .. and even a few months ago he was showing me something and it had included who exactly he was and how the pieces fit together.
is the pre-existing arm of God/ married/had unity/ baptism /like a dove from the Father ... with the right arm/offshoot or the best man had to offer/ which was a son of King David.
thus he became God and man through his faithfulness to the Fathers plans.
interesting and reasonable linguistic support for the "traditional" or "orthodox" view of Jesus as pre-existent Son of God and sharer in the Divine Nature. blessings and thanks for your good work.
Just another attempt to make the
Word about a person rather than the concept it IS. (Embodied perfectly in the life and ministry of Jesus, yes, but still all about the Way and NOT the person)
yes it is the one we all quote constantly..micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah......from old and from everlasting.. these would be the same words they were trying to translate into those greek words you are giving as definitions in your OP.. I do believe .. old and everlasting.... his roots are from the old and the everlasting.. one old and one everlasting these became both Man and God together in one promised Jesus.. I will put the roots words here..https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/.../t_conc_898002
pointing to two such concepts in one person.. old or foundations in time.. and also out of time.. and an always... both now in one person.. Judge of Israel the only one worthy to judge it condemn and forgive and restore it. as it shows right there in Micah . and he will do both to it and has the right to be its judge like no one else . and ultimately he will forgive it. all of it ... but they got trouble coming their way. but no one will get through this change/marriage of heaven and earth completely unscathed I do believe.. it is going to HURT everyone ! who's ready?
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