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Seems like David couldn't get enough of it. How many mistresses, wives and concubines did the man have, and one gay lover (that we know about)? And he was a man after God's own heart.
Actually, there are those who have examined the superficial statement of the two men being friends and their love for each other surpassing that of a woman and see them as NOT in a sexual relationship. I'm talking about Episcopal priests, who have no problem with gay couples.
In that culture, such a taboo would not have been said as if it were acceptable, and it is thought that the two were close on an emotional level but not necessarily a sexual one. Such as a brother (or a sister).
In the end, it doesn't matter. They loved each other in some way.
Yes. Both are Episcopal priests. One was a Catholic priest who was raised in Italy and came to the U.S. and left the Roman church disillusioned in his early thirties. He married, went into corporate marketing, and then became an Episcopal priest at 67 after his retirement. He is a wonderful preacher, an educated scholar, and a compassionate, loving human being. He left us last year to retire for good when a heart problem arose.
The other is a former Episcopal priest who left the church because he realized he did not believe in the Trinity and that this conflicted with the church in which he served. He still is an active Christian, leads centering prayer and other contemplative Christian activities, and is also a well-read Christian scholar.
you either have a very serious condition of seared conscience,..
you can lie to yourself till you run out of air.
You can lie to yourself...Man was not meant to remain a baby in Gan Eden...He was meant to leave and subdue the earth and populate it and to learn and grow as a human being...So You are obviously the one lying to yourself...
Actually, there are those who have examined the superficial statement of the two men being friends and their love for each other surpassing that of a woman and see them as NOT in a sexual relationship. I'm talking about Episcopal priests, who have no problem with gay couples.
In that culture, such a taboo would not have been said as if it were acceptable, and it is thought that the two were close on an emotional level but not necessarily a sexual one. Such as a brother (or a sister).
In the end, it doesn't matter. They loved each other in some way.
If you read the whole story Saul is particularly upset with Jonathan and makes a statement to the effect that he has uncovered his mother's nakedness. That is a term used when something of a sexual nature has taken place. And Saul is using it with regard to Jonathan and David.
Interesting. You appear to be somewhat on the delicate side. I've read lots of scripture about Sodom and Gomorrah but I've yet to read about anything specific 'that they did there' that would 'shock and sicken' anyone.
Tell me, what DID the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah do that was worthy of an 'all-loving God' having destroyed the cities, killing everyone - including women, children, babies and animals?
NOTHING the residents of S&G did could match the mass slaughter committed by God of an entire population of hundreds (maybe thousands?) of living beings, apart from Lot and his wayward daughters. Since you seem to be so ultra-sensitive, are you not shocked and sickened and left somewhat mentally scarred for life by the actions of such a God, or does He pass muster on this one?
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Originally Posted by BlackberryMerlot
Well, I had to look it up. In the King James Bible it is more explicit than this. But here it is.
Genesis 19:1-9
Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. And he said, "Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant's house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way." They said however, "No, but we shall spend the night in the square." Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them." But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, "Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. "Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof." But they said, "Stand aside." Furthermore, they said, "This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them." So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door.
Just to fill you in, BM, I know this story both forwards and backwards and presenting it again doesn't change anything that I've had to say about it previously. Until someone can actually offer proof that Sodom and Gomorrah actually existed, then I refuse to just blindly accept that they did exist. And, as long as they DID NOT exist the above story is no more than just a fanciful tale, albeit a tale that eventually results in a punchline re Lot and his wayward daughters.
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Originally Posted by BlackberryMerlot
So this mob of homosexuals wanted to rape the angels.
I can't believe that I keep responding to this nonsense. But, here I am again trying to instill reason into the minds of the, um, biblically sensitive. Best keep the smelling salt handy, BM. First off, the above is, in all likelihood, JUST A STORY! And, because it's likely just a story, one has to give a sigh of exasperation and submit to playing the devil's advocate over and over and over with regard to those who DO believe it to have been an actual occurrence. It's sort of like having to offer some coherent explanation for the Alice in Wonderland story to those who believe it to be true!
SO, let's play along and say that the Sodom and Gomorrah story actually did occur. We're told that ALL the men of Sodom, young and old, gathered outside Lot's door 'to know' the strangers who were visiting Lot. It would appear that the term 'to know' in this context does have a sexual connotation. In the Jewish Bible we're told that ALL the people of the city of Sodom gathered outside Lot's door. This includes the men, the women and possibly the children if 'all' actually means ALL. SO, your referring to ALL the men of Sodom as being 'this mob of homosexuals' becomes further ludicrous if we include the women and children as being part of 'this mob of homosexuals'!
But anyway, let's put on our thinking caps. Where did 'the young men' of the city come from, BM? The stork? Of course not. They came about through a sexual union between males and females. Do these males of Sodom sound like homosexuals to you? No. They sound like they are heterosexuals who desire 'to know' the strangers for reasons other than 'sexual intimacy', i.e. their intent was not 'to make love'.
You (correctly) mentioned 'rape'. Why do men rape other men? Well, in times of war the rape of a male captor by another male victor was the ultimate humiliation. It didn't have anything to do with homosexuality per se. Similarly so in the prison system where a male desires to exercise his dominance by raping another inmate. To 'feminize' another male (i.e. to reduce their masculinity and give them the status of a female through an act of rape) is the ultimate insult that can be inflicted on a male. And it's THIS, apparently, that the males of Sodom intended to do, probably just one or two of them, while the others looked on. From what we're told elsewhere in the Bible, this may have been the typical 'welcome wagon' of Sodom for strangers who were NOT welcome, i.e. the people of Sodom were typically 'inhospitable' to strangers.
You will notice, of course, that Gomorrah and other 'cities of the plain' were likewise destroyed and THEY had NOTHING to do with the 'men and the angels' saga.
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Originally Posted by BlackberryMerlot
I did not know at that age that such a thing was even possible. Even more horrifying to me was that Lot would send out his two virgin daughters to be raped.
Having another 'smelling salt moment', BM? Get over it. It's likely only a story. By the way, stay away from Aesop's Fables.
Nature aborts through miscarriage, we do live in a fallen would with sickness and all. It would be nice to still be in the Garden of Eden where no sickness or death ever occurred but we don't. And yes God knows each soul ever created and each soul that ever died, miscarriage included.
Who or what created “nature” and why did it give nature the power to decide who live or dies?
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And yes God knows each soul ever created and each soul that ever died, miscarriage included.
Can someone get pregnant without God’s okay?
Who or what designed and created miscarriages and why?
If you read the whole story Saul is particularly upset with Jonathan and makes a statement to the effect that he has uncovered his mother's nakedness. That is a term used when something of a sexual nature has taken place. And Saul is using it with regard to Jonathan and David.
In Jewish parlance one’s father’s nakedness would be one’s mother and vice-versa...
If you read the whole story Saul is particularly upset with Jonathan and makes a statement to the effect that he has uncovered his mother's nakedness. That is a term used when something of a sexual nature has taken place. And Saul is using it with regard to Jonathan and David.
Ah, didn't catch that. Interesting.
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