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"A mamzer (Hebrew: ממזר) is a person born from certain forbidden relationships, or the descendant of such a person, in the Hebrew Bible and Jewish religious law."
There is a story in judges 19 with similar features
These are stories not history
Jdg 19:18 And he said to him, “We are passing from Bethlehem in Judah to the remote parts of the hill country of Ephraim, from which I come. I went to Bethlehem in Judah, and I am going to the house of the LORD, but no one has taken me into his house.
Jdg 19:19 We have straw and feed for our donkeys, with bread and wine for me and your female servant and the young man with your servants. There is no lack of anything.”
Jdg 19:20 And the old man said, “Peace be to you; I will care for all your wants. Only, do not spend the night in the square.”
Jdg 19:21 So he brought him into his house and gave the donkeys feed. And they washed their feet, and ate and drank.
Gibeah's Crime
Jdg 19:22 As they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, worthless fellows, surrounded the house, beating on the door. And they said to the old man, the master of the house, “Bring out the man who came into your house, that we may know him.”
Jdg 19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out to them and said to them, “No, my brothers, do not act so wickedly; since this man has come into my house, do not do this vile thing.
Jdg 19:24 Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine. Let me bring them out now. Violate them and do with them what seems good to you, but against this man do not do this outrageous thing.”
Jdg 19:25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine and made her go out to them. And they knew her and abused her all night until the morning. And as the dawn began to break, they let her go.
Jdg 19:26 And as morning appeared, the woman came and fell down at the door of the man's house where her master was, until it was light.
Jdg 19:27 And her master rose up in the morning, and when he opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, behold, there was his concubine lying at the door of the house, with her hands on the threshold.
Jdg 19:28 He said to her, “Get up, let us be going.” But there was no answer. Then he put her on the donkey, and the man rose up and went away to his home.
Jdg 19:29 And when he entered his house, he took a knife, and taking hold of his concubine he divided her, limb by limb, into twelve pieces, and sent her throughout all the territory of Israel.
Jdg 19:30 And all who saw it said, “Such a thing has never happened or been seen from the day that the people of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt until this day; consider it, take counsel, and speak.”
You didn't catch it, because the Bible makes no such suggestion. Warden is clutching at straws trying to create such connection.
Saul wanted to kill David, and was angry at Jonathan trying to defend him.
Quote:
Saul’s anger flared up at Jonathan and he said to him, “You son of a perverse and rebellious woman! Don’t I know that you have sided with the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of the mother who bore you? As long as the son of Jesse lives on this earth, neither you nor your kingdom will be established. Now send someone to bring him to me, for he must die!”
You didn't catch it, because the Bible makes no such suggestion. Warden is clutching at straws trying to create such connection.
Saul wanted to kill David, and was angry at Jonathan trying to defend him.
Ah, Finn, I see in this case you prefer a watered down translation of the OT. Here's the one I used that is closer to original Hebrew. In fact here are several 1 Sam. 20:30:
Quote:
Then Saul's anger burned against Jonathan and he said to him, "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you are choosing the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mother's nakedness?
New American Standard
Quote:
Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?
KJV
Quote:
Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of a perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own shame, and unto the shame of thy mother's nakedness?
ESV
Quote:
Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said to him, "You son of a perverse rebellious woman, don't I know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame, and to the shame of your mother's nakedness?
World English Bible
Quote:
And the anger of Saul burneth against Jonathan, and he saith to him, 'Son of a perverse rebellious woman! have I not known that thou art fixing on the son of Jesse to thy shame, and to the shame of the nakedness of thy mother?
Young's Literal Translation
Quote:
And Saul's wrath was kindled against Jonathan, and he said to him, "You son of a straying woman deserving of punishment! Did I not know that you choose the son of Jesse, to your shame and to the shame of your mother's nakedness?
The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi Commentary
Your NIV version follows the toned down Catholic Douay-Rheims version:
Then Saul being angry against Jonathan said to him: Thou son of a woman that is the ravisher of a man, do I not know that thou lovest the son of Isai to thy own confusion and to the confusion of thy shameless mother?
The word uncover is found several places in the Bible (I think Noah's sons seeing his nakedness was the first) But here is a commentary regarding uncover:
Quote:
The word uncover,means to bare, to strip, to make naked, and to uncover the nakedness of which implies sexual relations.
Ah, Finn, I see in this case you prefer a watered down translation of the OT. Here's the one I used that is closer to original Hebrew. In fact here are several 1 Sam. 20:30:
LOL. There is no gay twist in it, although you clearly want there to be. "Shame of your mothers nakedness" simply means she feels ashamed for having brought Jonathan into this world.
Quote:
This is how you get mislead when you don't read several versions in parallel. You've completely misunderstood the concept that Saul was implying.
I use Biblehub, which gives 25 or so translations. Nice try, but no cigar. They all mean the same thing, although some argue Saul is saying Jonathan was not even his own son, which would mean the mother had been unfaithful (perverse and rebellious woman), and also that Jonathan would never be king. Either way, there just isn't the gay twist that you are looking for.
I know you have an agenda, but this is just massive reach, and clutching at straws. Fail.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-17-2018 at 07:47 AM..
Who or what created “nature” and why did it give nature the power to decide who live or dies?
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Can someone get pregnant without God’s okay?
Who or what designed and created miscarriages and why?
God created nature but in a fallen world stuff happens.
Someone can get pregnant when they have sex, that is their decision----God gives the person free will but they have to exercise it. Can't blame everything on God.
Miscarriages can be explained in the medical literature, why not go there to find out how they happen?
Is that the Hebrew equivalent of calling someone an SOB?
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