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Since I wasn't the original poster, I cannot speak for the reason he or she raised the discussion. But both Tolkien and Lewis were two of the most popular Christian authors of the 20th century and are still widely read in the 21st. Books have been written about their books for decades. It's a totally worthy topic of conversation.
Ok. Many fiction and fantasy novelists are Christians, so I guess Tolkien is not alone. His books do not include a Christian message, which is why I wondered why the OP brought him up.
It seems my simple question has offended some posters for whatever reason.
Oh, yulk yulk yulk, you are SO slick, Finn. NOT. There ya go with your "I'll pretend they meant something else and respond as if" schtick. What you are trying to pull above is dishonest.
The quote above is not what anyone is arguing about, of course.
For those reading, it is the rest of Sum Tingy's post about the EC, quoting Ezekiel, to which Minivan and I took exception:
“My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to listen to your words, but they do not put them into practice. With their mouths they express devotion, but their hearts are greedy for unjust gain. Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice” (Ezekiel 33:31-32).
It's quite the opposite.
Sum, Finn, etc. Use the above verses as a mirror. Look hard. Look long. You all talk long and loud about the sins of others, but when it comes to your own..your silence is deafening. Why is that?
Sum, Finn, etc. Use the above verses as a mirror. Look hard. Look long. You all talk long and loud about the sins of others, but when it comes to your own..your silence is deafening. Why is that?
I don't recall talking about your sins. You'll have to refresh my memory.
Ok. Many fiction and fantasy novelists are Christians, so I guess Tolkien is not alone. His books do not include a Christian message, which is why I wondered why the OP brought him up.
It seems my simple question has offended some posters for whatever reason.
Quote:
Incidentally, the imagery of the binding of the Devil found in Rev. 20:1-2 and II Pet. 2:4 can also be found in the Silmarillion's tale of the Captivity of Melkor, when he was bound for a long age with the chain Angainor. However, that event occurred vast ages prior to his expulsion during the War of Wrath.
One of the most obvious Christian themes in Tolkien's writings is, of course, the resurrection of Gandalf, who had to sacrifice everything-even his years of plans, efforts, and his very hopes that the Dark Lord might be defeated-in order to secure the safety of the Fellowship. The comparison of Gandalf's death and resurrection to the death and resurrection of Christ is self-evident to any and all.
Other Christian themes found throughout Tolkien's works of fantasy include the doctrines of monotheism and divine providence, and the redemptive and penitential nature of suffering (cf. Boromir's atoning for his assault on Frodo by singlehandedly but vainly defending Merry and Pippin from orcs, or the dreadful ordeal of Sam and Frodo in Mordor).
Again, Tolkien's Valar and Maiar answer to the angels of Christian faith, with Manwe being comparable in some ways to Michael the Archangel. As mentioned above, Melkor, the great fallen Vala also called Morgoth, answers to Satan the Devil. We have already seen the influence of the traditional Christian devotion to the Virgin Mary upon the creation of the character of Queen Galadriel. Some of that same influence can be detected in the character of Manwe's ``spouse'' Varda or Elbereth.
Others have noticed the similarity of the Elvish lembas to the consecrated bread of the Eucharist. Indeed, Christians often call the Eucharist viaticum, which means bread ``for the way,'' or for the journey-``waybread,'' a word Tolkien himself uses for the Elvish lembas. The Eucharist is believed to be spiritually more effective when eaten by someone who is fasting. Tolkien gave lembas a very similar quality.
There is also the baptismal imagery of Frodo's confrontation with the Ringwraiths at the Fords of Bruinen. In that scene a fatally-wounded Frodo passed through water to the safety of Rivendell, where he would be restored to health-though he would never be completely healed in this world. As Frodo was rescued, the waters of Bruinen swept the Nazgul away, just as Israel escaped from slavery through the Red Sea, which drowned the pursuing Egyptian army. Similarly, baptism miraculously washes away sin, but leaves our tendency for sin (``concupiscence'').
Also, just as we renounce Satan at our baptisms, with the words ``By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!'' Frodo bravely (albeit hopelessly) defied the Ringwraiths, who pleaded with him to come back with them to Mordor even as he was on the verge of succumbing to the evil of his enchanted wound. Another instance of baptismal imagery in The Lord of the Rings can be found in the scene of Frodo's attempt to leave for Mordor alone. Sam tried to leap into Frodo's boat but fell short, sinking completely under the water before Frodo pulled him back up out of the river and into the boat.
Christians have also noticed that both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings tell stories of a prophesied restoration of a kingdom, similar to the story that is told in the Gospels. In The Hobbit it is the Dwarvish Kingdom ``under the Mountain,'' and in The Lord of the Rings it is the dual kingdom of Arnor and Gondor, that are restored. In both stories the heir to the kingdom is naturally something of a Christ-figure. For instance, in The Hobbit Thorin Oakenshield displays petty and selfish behavior that is not at all like Jesus Christ, but he redeems himself at the end by an act of self-sacrifice during the Battle of Five Armies. When the allied forces were in danger of defeat, Thorin turned the tide of the battle by drawing the main assault onto himself, crying out, ``To me! To me! Elves and Men! To me! O my kinsfolk!''
Thus, the Dwarvish kingdom could only be restored by the heir to the kingdom laying down his life in an act that drew the allies together, enabling them to win the battle. That is very reminiscent of John 12:32-33- `` `. . . And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.' Now he said this signifying by what death he was to die.''
No, Finn, we are not offended, but rather astonished that a self-professed "christian" is unable to the imagery of God's work in MEN!!! I suppose J.K. Rowling's Potter books are just fantasy as well, although she did admit in an interview that she drew upon biblical images for her storylines.
The world is full of wonderful things you haven't seen yet. Don't ever give up on the chance of seeing them.
No, Finn, we are not offended, but rather astonished that a self-professed "christian"...
You sound offended. I suppose putting Christian it in quotes is a continuation of your never ending attempts to declare who is and isn't a Christian.
No, Gandalf in LOTR was not a Jesus figure, or a savior of any sort. Even if the scene of him being reborn as "white" had been inspired by Jesus resurrection, the book is still pure fantasy. There simply isn't a Christian theme in the LOTR.
Quote:
I suppose J.K. Rowling's Potter books are just fantasy as well, although she did admit in an interview that she drew upon biblical images for her storylines.
Yes, Potter is obviously pure fantasy. If you want to call Harry Potter books as spiritual, then so be it.
Ok. Many fiction and fantasy novelists are Christians, so I guess Tolkien is not alone. His books do not include a Christian message, which is why I wondered why the OP brought him up.
“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like ‘religion’, to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.” --- J.R.R. Tolkien, in a letter to his friend Robert Murray, S.J. (December 1953)
Last edited by mensaguy; 04-04-2018 at 01:44 PM..
Reason: Don't use red text
“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like ‘religion’, to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.” --- J.R.R. Tolkien, in a letter to his friend Robert Murray, S.J. (December 1953)
My point is that there is no Christian theme in the story. Even if the author was inspired by religion while creating 'Mordor" etc and in use if symbolism, it still is not a Christian story. Were the orks forgiven? No. Was Gandalf a savior? No.
For me a story can only qualify as such, would be if it was written in such way that it would paint a Christian theme which might inspire people to seek God. LOTR makes no effort to do that. It is a very entertaining story though.
Chronicles of Narnia, in the other hand, does have a Christian theme in it.
Last edited by mensaguy; 04-04-2018 at 01:44 PM..
Reason: Edited text color in quoted post
You sound offended. I suppose putting Christian it in quotes is a continuation of your never ending attempts to declare who is and isn't a Christian.
No, Gandalf in LOTR was not a Jesus figure, or a savior of any sort. Even if the scene of him being reborn as "white" had been inspired by Jesus resurrection, the book is still pure fantasy. There simply isn't a Christian theme in the LOTR.
Yes, Potter is obviously pure fantasy. If you want to call Harry Potter books as spiritual, then so be it.
Stubbornly remaining ignorant is yet another character trait of fundies by which they are easily identified.
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