Lord Jesus, are there few that be saved? (baptism, studies, teachings)

Originally Posted by pneuma

It is an indicative and not a potential indicative, but even if it was a potential indicative then it still shows that it could be either or.

Then you are disagreeing with professional Greek scholars not me. That's fine but I have given my arguments and think they are worthy.

And I get that YOUR understanding comes from what YOU believe Paul is saying in other places concerning faith and wrath. My understanding comes from Gods purpose in sending Jesus Christ which was for the salvation of the world, and I do not see Paul contradicting Gods purpose. Thus YOUR understanding of faith and wrath if it contradicts Gods purpose is incorrect.

That's a problem when we are trying to discover 'God's purpose' through the writings of men. As someone who seeks the facts I can only go by what they write and be as honest as I can - I have no horse in the race of theology because I'm a atheists. As such my bias and reliance on Scholars is an honest attempt to seek those facts not a bias one on my part.

And the grammar and Paul's own writings tell me otherwise. You have to know the purpose of the word Gods wrath which is what you seem to be lacking.

Maybe, but you have not done anything in the way of proper exegesis to show otherwise. I'm not finding your arguments or posts convincing.

That was the KJV

Here is young's literal

who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth

Where did you get your translation because it does not follow what is said. It cannot say who all men desire to be saved because the preceding verse states.

for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour WHO.

It is about what God wills and not what man wills.

Mine was the Greek - ...who (hos) all (pantas) peoples (anthropous) desires (thelei) to be saved (sothenai)...

Yes even Kings.

I also gave you professional Greek grammar so what we have is people fighting over the meaning of will have.

But you already admitted that 'will' / 'desire' is flexible. They all agree to the flexibility of the word but the grammatical context of the word is much more helpful as such. So why are you guys fighting my definition of the word as desire/wish? The grammatical context of this word in the sentence is my main argument.

So that leaves us with Gods purpose and we know that Gods purpose in sending Jesus is for the salvation of the world.

And God accomplished that purpose in the death of Christ but again Paul is teaching that as propitiation not a justification of all people. I get that you are making a theological and philosophical argument against God's sacrifice as not being effective in justification of all people as something not in line with God's purpose - BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT PAUL IS TEACHING.

What I see matches that purpose, what you see does not and it is tantamount to stating God can sin for you are stating God will miss His mark, which is sin.

No, that is you rationalization and intellectually dishonest attempt to poison what is being said by Paul. God did to miss his mark of dying for all peoples. He did just that but again that does not justify everyone.

I am shooting from the purpose of God in sending Jesus Christ and of Paul is correct that all scripture is inspired by God then those scriptures MUST declare HIS PURPOSE.

And what is His purpose?

The salvation of the WORLD.

Again, see above! Also the 'Scriptures' Paul was referring to must be the OT not the NT. Paul never called his own writings 'scripture' and there was no corpus of the NT when he wrote his letter. And the 'world' is not an all inclusive word meaning every individual. Jewish thought excluded many people groups from salvation Paul is bringing in those people as part of God's plan. This so obvious in his writings.

My arguments have been three based not on my won desires, pardon the pun, but on sound research and linguistic principles as well as proper exegesis:

1) The definition of the word can be wish/desire.
2) The word, in context, has grammatical support for this.
3) The teaching of Paul on faith and wrath in all of his other writings support the above.

If these are not good enough then nothing will be. You are free to disagree and maybe that's where we should leave it.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

I didn't say he did, but you are the one who wants it to be predicated on our faith, instead of his faithfulness to accomplish all that he was sent to do. And limit his atonement to those who profess this, or that according to the doctrines of men.

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Read my post #393 to pcamps. I am demonstrating what Paul is teaching not my personal wishes. Paul was a man was he not?

I went back and read what you said. And you have it backwards, what has been recently adopted is that of believe-in! And yes, he was a man, so what is your point? That I should follow Paul when Jesus said, "come follow me?"

Originally Posted by pneuma

Shiloh I believe all will have faith, all will believe, it matters not if they do so right now it only matter that God is faithful to accomplish what He set out to do.

Let me give you a small example from scripture.

For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply,*after he hath laid the foundation,*and is*not able to finish it, all that behold it*begin to mock him,*30Saying,*This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

Did God sit down and count the cost for the salvation of the world?

After He laid the foundation, Jesus Christ, for that salvation is He unable to finish what He started?

According to those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation He is unable.

Eternal torment and annihilation are mocking God, saying He began to build, and was not able to finish.

Again, he is able and will finish what he starts but it is his will to start by this: By Grace you are save through faith... all the finishing will be done for those who have believed and the cross is open to all to believe. That is Paul's teaching.

Also a little side note is that now you are saying that faith is important for justification but that all will have faith. That's different than what you were saying. But again that is not anywhere said.

Originally Posted by Jerwade

I went back and read what you said. And you have it backwards, what has been recently adopted is that of believe-in!

Ok, if you say so I guess it is so - was this an argument of some sort or refutation of my points - NO! I don't have time for this 'nuh-uh' methodology.

And yes, he was a man, so what is your point? That I should follow Paul when Jesus said, "come follow me?"

You are using a man's letters to make your points (not good ones though) and then complaining about me using men's doctrines - these same letters. The verses you are using are men's doctrine too.

I knew responding to you was a waste of time. It always turns this way with you.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Again, he is able and will finish what he starts but it is his will to start by this: By Grace you are save through faith... all the finishing will be done for those who have believed and the cross is open to all to believe. That is Paul's teaching.

Also a little side note is that now you are saying that faith is important for justification but that all will have faith. That's different than what you were saying. But again that is not anywhere said.

What do you actually believe being saved is?.

[Rose2Luv]

Originally Posted by pneuma

Gods purpose in sending Jesus was for the salvation of all. so it is almost mind blowing that so many see and try to prove the scriptures against Gods purpose in sending Jesus.

Should not the scriptures support Gods purpose instead of denying His purpose.

My friend, I was just taking a little visit to the friendship link on C.D. The a post near the end is one of the reasons I believe, with all that is within me, that our Father's intention in the Son of His love will be consummated in fulness!

https://www.gofundme.com/savingcarter

The Saviour of all mankind has many glorious aspects to His salvation in Christ Jesus. Little sick children, old codgers, those who could not follow Jesus Christ, the whole mass of a broken race crying out for deliverance (wether they know it yet or not.)

Shall be delivered!

" For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Originally Posted by pcamps

What do you actually believe being saved is?.

You asked me this already and I answered it. The word for salvation/saved can apply to being saved from the consequences of sin and thus saved from the wrath to come. It can be applied to glorification - being saved from the corruption of the body - resurrection to life eternal. It's a number of things - it depends on the context. It can be still future or past - depends.

[Rose2Luv]

Originally Posted by Rose2Luv

My friend, I was just taking a little visit to the friendship link on C.D. The very last post is one of the reasons I believe, with all that is within me, that our Father's intention in the Son of His love will be consummated in fulness!

https://www.gofundme.com/savingcarter

The Saviour of all mankind has many glorious aspects to His salvation in Christ Jesus. Little sick children, old codgers, those who could not follow Jesus Christ, the whole mass of a broken race crying out for deliverance (wether they know it yet or not.)

Shall be delivered!

" For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we're free at last!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/roma...1-compare.html

"That all living things will be made free from the power of death and will have a part with the free children of God in glory."

"until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens."

Let's take a look at I Tim.1:3-4 for some further context of the will of God in his redemptive plan:

As I urged you when I was leaving for Macedonia, stay on in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to spread false teachings, nor to occupy themselves with myths and interminable genealogies. Such things promote useless speculations rather than God’s redemptive plan that operates by faith.

More literally, “the administration of God that is by faith.”

The basic word (οἰκονομία, oikonomia) denotes the work of a household steward or manager or the arrangement under which he works: “household management.” As a theological term it is used of the order or arrangement by which God brings redemption through Christ (God’s “dispensation, plan of salvation” [Eph 1:10; 3:9]) or of human responsibility to pass on the message of that salvation (“stewardship, commission” [1 Cor 9:17; Eph 3:2; Col 1:25]). Here the former is in view (see the summary of God’s plan in 1 Tim 2:3-6; 2 Tim 1:9-10; Titus 3:4-7), and Paul notes the response people must make to God’s arrangement: It is “in faith” or “by faith.”

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

You asked me this already and I answered it. The word for salvation/saved can apply to being saved from the consequences of sin and thus saved from the wrath to come. It can be applied to glorification - being saved from the corruption of the body - resurrection to life eternal. It's a number of things - it depends on the context. It can be still future or past - depends.

If that is so then you would think it would be that clear a blind man on a galloping horse can see that salvation is from eternal hell or annihilation. Yet, what is the evidence in the scriptures of this so that this horse riding blind man can see it?, one lousy verse??????? that talks about being saved from the wrath to come, which those who believe in eternal torment think that wrath sends you into eternal torment, it doesn't say that nor does it suggest that. So a whole belief system is built upon one verse ?, don't you find that odd considering the graveness of not believing such an awful vile despicable doctrine of the fundies is based on one verse?, and i don't know if you know this, but nowhere within the scriptures is salvation associated with eternal hell.