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9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
For they saw God, clearly or as it states in clearness.
But we have to remember, seeing is not believing, as the seventy were rebellious, and had to die out in the wilderness until a believing generation rose up and conquered by FAITH.
Similarly we have to remember, that Jesus as persecuted by the Sanhedrin or 70 elders, except for Nicodemus, who got saved and believed in John 3. Position in a religious body does not quarantee righteousness...as we should know..maybe the opposite.
But lets get back to the divine body of the Lord....
Exodus 33; 23
Are you suggesting that one should not believe what one sees? Should one believe only what they feel?
And finally, do you think the biblical writer in Exodus was stating that the seventy were "seeing" but not really when he felt it necessary to emphatically state "And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand?"
David was every bit as sinful as the nobles of the Hebrews and he had "seen and believed." Why did God handle that situation differently from the Wilderness? Is He not consistent? Or is it that since all these were written long after whatever the facts were, they were viewed through different lenses?
Hi Davidjj.
In your opinion...do you think this should be ignored? I sure don't.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:
for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Gen 32:30
And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and
we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen
this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
Deut 5:24
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wardendresden...this is a wonderful question in general I will use sometime:
Quote:
Are you suggesting that one should not believe what one sees?
Should one believe only what they feel?
Are you suggesting that one should not believe what one sees? Should one believe only what they feel?
And finally, do you think the biblical writer in Exodus was stating that the seventy were "seeing" but not really when he felt it necessary to emphatically state "And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand?"
David was every bit as sinful as the nobles of the Hebrews and he had "seen and believed." Why did God handle that situation differently from the Wilderness? Is He not consistent? Or is it that since all these were written long after whatever the facts were, they were viewed through different lenses?
I differ with you.... as seeing is not necessarily believing..... the Hebrew mixed multitude was not very believing and it caused Moses no end of trouble, with their doubts and fears and groaning and moaning and complaining, their golden calf, and absolute refusal to obey, so they wandered in the desert for forty years when the crossing should have taken 40 days.
The 70 elders, all died off so a new believing generation of believers under Joshua and Caleb took over and lead in the Promised Land.
Just write in Moses and read all or parts as needed on the top line. This is not my website but an easily public domain website where you can read the Bible.
PS) Moses wrote Exodus, I mean the first Exodus not the SECOND ONE
Personally I know lots of people who saw the miracles, our family saw, but returned backwards from beliveing to their unbelief. Similarly the mixed multitude of Moses, crossed the Red Sea on foot and yet still did not believe or have FAITH. Ha... they were not grounded in FAITH but were shallow
Hi Davidjj.
In your opinion...do you think this should be ignored? I sure don't.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:
for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Gen 32:30
And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and
we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen
this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
Deut 5:24
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wardendresden...this is a wonderful question in general I will use sometime:
While I am still HERE, allow me to answer you IMO from experience.
SEE again the parable of the Sower,,,
As we are to go deep and not be shallow, we have to have the seeds of faith down DEEP within our souls and that comes from faithfully obeying and experiencing the truths and principles of the Lord.
Its not shallow feelings , its knowing... we KNOW the Lord, and we have the experiences from the past to realize FAITH works, Jesus never fails and always supplies if we are doing our part.
Its Scien*****, you can figure that word out, even if I am not ******.... to write it
IN S^^^^^, its a matter of testing to determine truths and laws, it applies to spirituality as well. Test and see if the Lord is good, test His words, obey His words and then you get FAITH in His laws or principles or precepts. Its not wishy washy feelings or mere visuals, or one day on and the next day OFF shallowness. Its depth and KNOWING.
Know the laws, use the Laws... go deep stay deep..... obey from the heart not from mere theory
I differ with you.... as seeing is not necessarily believing..... the Hebrew mixed multitude was not very believing and it caused Moses no end of trouble, with their doubts and fears and groaning and moaning and complaining, their golden calf, and absolute refusal to obey, so they wandered in the desert for forty years when the crossing should have taken 40 days.
The 70 elders, all died off so a new believing generation of believers under Joshua and Caleb took over and lead in the Promised Land.
Just write in Moses and read all or parts as needed on the top line. This is not my website but an easily public domain website where you can read the Bible.
PS) Moses wrote Exodus, I mean the first Exodus not the SECOND ONE
Personally I know lots of people who saw the miracles, our family saw, but returned backwards from beliveing to their unbelief. Similarly the mixed multitude of Moses, crossed the Red Sea on foot and yet still did not believe or have FAITH. Ha... they were not grounded in FAITH but were shallow
SEE and read the Parable of the Sower, etc etc...
Well, no sense us trying to debate because I and most textual critics of Scripture think Moses had nothing to do with writing Scripture. He lived around 1250 BCE. The oldest fragment of the Torah dates to about 1000 BCE.
In fact, evidence that the Pentateuch wasn't written by Moses was my first clue to stepping away from fundamentalism. And I got it in a introductory NT course taught in a Southern Baptist university.
Here are just a few pointers to Moses having nothing to do with the Pentateuch:
Quote:
1) The Edomite kings listed in Genesis 36 did not live until after Moses was dead
2) Moses is referred to in the 3rd person in several passages
3) There are places named that Moses could not have known (he never entered the Promised Land)
4) The Hebrew of the text includes terms that were developed long after Moses' death
Moses' death is included in Deuteronomy.
5) Camels are listed in Abraham's retinue, but camels were domesticated around 1000, long after Abraham (1550 BCE) and even Moses (1250 BCE)
6) The text mentions Philistines in the time between Abraham and Moses, but the Philistines did not enter the coastal areas of Canaan until around 1200 BCE (after Moses).
7) The text says, "At that time the Canaanites were in the land" (Gen 12:6), which implies the author writes in a time when they were no longer there -- but they were clearly there when Joshua led the Israelites into Canaan after Moses' death.
8) Statements such as "before any king ruled over the Israelites" (Gen 36:31) imply a time in the writer's mind when kings had ruled over the Israelites -- but none ever did in Moses' lifetime.
9) In Deuteronomy 34, the writer says, "There never arose another prophet in Israel like Moses." It didn't seem to make sense that Moses' -- or even God, in Moses' time -- would write such words.
Certain parts of the Torah use words for places and things that are different from other parts. For instance, some stories (Exodus 3, 17, and 31; Deuteronomy everywhere but once) used "Horeb" as the name for the mountain where Moses receives the Law, while other parts of the story (Exodus 16, 19, 31, 34; Leviticus and Numbers throughout; and Deuteronomy 33) use the name "Sinai". Some stories throughout use the name "Amorites" for the original dwellers of Canaan, while others use the word "Canaanites". Moses' father-in-law is named as Jethro in most stories, but in others he is named Reuel
If we can't agree on that, there is unlikely any opportunity for us to view any other area with common agreement for a basis. I don't think Moses would have written in third person, been aware of tribes that would latter come into existence like the Philistines, and most certainly he would have known his father-in-law's name.
There are also linguistic clues within the text that illustrate the hand of different authors redacting text. I studied linguistics in college. It's quite easy in English to determine where two different writers have been juxtaposed, and that is what earlier scholars see in the Pentateuch (JEDP theory).
SEE again the parable of the Sower,,,
As we are to go deep and not be shallow, we have to have the seeds of faith down DEEP within our souls and that comes from faithfully obeying and experiencing the truths and principles of the Lord.
Its not shallow feelings , its knowing... we KNOW the Lord, and we have the experiences from the past to realize FAITH works, Jesus never fails and always supplies if we are doing our part.Its Scien*****, you can figure that word out, even if I am not ******.... to write it
IN S^^^^^, its a matter of testing to determine truths and laws, it applies to spirituality as well. Test and see if the Lord is good, test His words, obey His words and then you get FAITH in His laws or principles or precepts. Its not wishy washy feelings or mere visuals, or one day on and the next day OFF shallowness. Its depth and KNOWING.
Know the laws, use the Laws... go deep stay deep..... obey from the heart not from mere theory
You got that right, my friend. We agree on this.
Ha...I could have written this whole thing. I do not even use the word faith, tho...I have the deep, profound ,
imbedded in my subconscious mind 100% knowing there is nothing impossible with God...I'm not
asked to go to the ICU to heal dying people on life support for nothing!
Gee, I'm meeting an atheist from here for lunch tomorrow ...do you think this
would scare him off... LOL hahahaha
Well, no sense us trying to debate because I and most textual critics of Scripture think Moses had nothing to do with writing Scripture. He lived around 1250 BCE. The oldest fragment of the Torah dates to about 1000 BCE.
In fact, evidence that the Pentateuch wasn't written by Moses was my first clue to stepping away from fundamentalism. And I got it in a introductory NT course taught in a Southern Baptist university.
Here are just a few pointers to Moses having nothing to do with the Pentateuch:
If we can't agree on that, there is unlikely any opportunity for us to view any other area with common agreement for a basis. I don't think Moses would have written in third person, been aware of tribes that would latter come into existence like the Philistines, and most certainly he would have known his father-in-law's name.
There are also linguistic clues within the text that illustrate the hand of different authors redacting text. I studied linguistics in college. It's quite easy in English to determine where two different writers have been juxtaposed, and that is what earlier scholars see in the Pentateuch (JEDP theory).
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LOL hahahaha
