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Jesus heavily rebuked the Jews for their extra biblical beliefs and you use extra biblical sources to prove your point, that's not very convincing. The Saduccees believed in no afterlive at all, some believed in reincarnation (Wisdom contains hints of this belief btw), so what?
One could even go so far to say that eternity at all is an unbiblical idea, eternity is more than endless time and we find no such concept elaborated anywhere in the Bible, that the guestionable words do not (always) refer to endless time has been proven over and over again.
It is not difficult then to understand the vehement opposition of this, when all said and done the christian message( as far back as we know) is based on the concept of not only where you are going to when you pass from this life but the duration of it, then to add the fear element that made the choice of this message so easy, the whole thing is a mess, a mess that is difficult to break free from.
I think the New Testament is very clear that there is both eternal hell and eternal life. Just clear your mind of all confusion and read the New Testament and remember: 2000 years of theology can't go wrong. But there is this verse as well which is found in the Book of Daniel.
Daniel 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
And Daniel lived before Plato.
Think of it this way: evolutionists believe all humans who have ever lived or died will die for eternity. Yet there is eternal life for the righteous who loved God in the Bible. So in Christianity not ever soul who has ever lived and died go to hell, unlike in atheism where every dies eternally which is another interpretation of hell.
Then there are some NewAge sects that believe everyone is saved and there is no hell. This means Hitler is saved and MS-13 gang members are saved, Isis is saved and there is no form of justice with this NewAge god which no NewAger knows anything about. At least the Christian view is justice. Without justice there can be no eternal peace or love.
There is also this passage from Wisdom, which is Jewish Apocrypha written 50 years before the birth of Christ. This is a very good read and gives you some insight on this issue. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...A9&version=RSV
As for words, translations, and plays on words: they all mean the same thing. There is is a hell and regardless of the word being used to express it they all mean the same thing. Both heaven and hell are eternal. Jesus wants us to choose eternal life.
You are aware that Hitler killed homosexuals, communists, Jews, people who according to traditional belief end up in hell as well, maybe with the exception of pious Jews, but what about atheist or secular Jews? At the end you place Hitler's victims in hell with him while some high tier Nazis lived long enough to repent, you can argument in favor for hell with tradition or what according to your conviction is written in the Bible, but not with sane reason. Nobody says that the wicked will not be punished.
What I said was that repeating something over and over again, doesn't make it truth.
Yes it does if you're a Christian. There is no way 22 translations spanning from 1535 to 2014 are gonna all get it wrong. Its take a conspiracy driven mind to think over wise. Last I checked this is the Christian section so atheistic skepticism has no relevance on anything here. All I've seen here is a very bad argument that deliberately ignores everything that refutes it. That is not how Christians think.
2 Cor. 4:2,
Quote:
"But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God" (KJV).
Christians don't lie to gain new converts.
Quote:
"But if by my lie God’s truth is amplified to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, just as some people slanderously claim we say, “Let us do what is evil so that good may come� Their condemnation is deserved!" (Rom.3:7-8).
So all this word play and ignoring everything that refutes the idea that there is no hell is a lie and therefore a sin. Faith cannot grow when you water it with sin.
What is the purpose of repentance if we never had to repent? If there is no hell then why aren't we living like the muslims and doing what we want to do including sin?
Consider these ahadith and ask yourself if we Christians live by this form of moral relativism:
Sahih Muslim, Vol.7, Book 49, Hadith [7014] 51 - (...),
Quote:
"It was narrated from Abu Burdah from his father that the Prophet said: "On the Day of Resurrection some Muslim people will come with sins like mountains, but Allah will forgive them and will place them (the sins) on the Jews and the Christians" as for as I reckon.
Abu Rawh said: "I do not know who is the one who was uncertain." Abu Burdah said: "I narrated that to 'Umar bin 'Abdul-'Aziz and he said: 'Did your father narrate that to you from the Messenger of Allah?' I said 'Yes.'"
Sahih Muslim, Vol.7, Book 49, Hadith [7012] 50 - (...),
Quote:
" 'Awn and Sa'eed bin Abi Burdah narrated that they witnessed Abu Burdah narrating to 'Umar bin 'Abdul-'Aziz from his father that the Prophet said: "No Muslim man dies but Allah causes a Jew or a Christian to enter the Fire in his stead." 'Umar bin 'Adbul-;Aziz asked him to swear by Allah, besides Whom none has the right to be worshipped, three times, that his father narrated that to him from the Prophet, and he swore to him. Sa'eed did not tell me that he asked him to swear, but he did not object to what 'Awn said."
Sahih Muslim, Vol.7, Book 49, Chapter..., Hadith [7011] 49 - (2767),
Quote:
"Chapter... The Vastness Of Allah's Mercy Towards The Believers, And Every Muslim Will Be Ransomed By A Disbeliever From The Fire
[7011] 49 - (2767) It was narrated that Abu Musa said: "The Messenger of Allah said: 'When the Day of Resurrection comes, Allah, Glorified and Exalted is He, will give every Muslim a Jew or a Christian, and He will say: "This is your ransom from the Fire."
So are we Christians to live by a standard like this? Do we continue sinning because God will ransom us by throwing a muslim or an atheist in the fire in our place?
Sahih Muslim, Vol.7, Book 49, Chapter 5, Hadith [6986] 29 - (2758),
Quote:
"Chapter 5. Acceptance Of Repentance From Sin, Even If The Sin And Repentance Happen Repeatedly
[6986] 29 - (2758) It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that in a Hadith Qudsi the Prophet said, quoting the Lord, the Sublime and Majestic: "A man committed a sin and said: 'O Lord, forgive me.' Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He, said: 'My slave has committed a sin, but he knew that he has a Lord Who forgives sin, and calls people to account for sin.' Then he sinned again and said: 'O Lord, forgive me.' Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He, said: 'My slave has committed a sin, but he knew that he has a Lord Who forgives sin, and calls people to account for sin.' Then he sinned again and said: 'O Lord, forgive me.' Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He, said: 'My slave has committed a sin, but he knew that he has a Lord Who forgives sin. Do what you wish, for I have forgiven you.'"
'Abdul-A'la said: "I do not know whether he said after the third or the fourth time: 'Do what you wish.'"
Sahih Muslim, Hadith [6988] 30 - (...),
Quote:
'Abdullah bin Abi Talhah said: "In Al-Madinah there was a storyteller called 'Abdur-Rahman bin Abi 'Amrah. I heard him say: 'I heard Abu Hurairah say: "A man committed a sin..." a Hadith like that of Hammad bin Salamah (no,6986), and he mentioned three times that he committed a sin, and after the third time (he said): "I have forgiven My slave; let him do what he likes."
So muslims can do what they want. Sounds like moral relativism! Is that what the Bible teaches?
There are two extremes addressed in the New Testament. The Apostle Paul addresses the issue of strict legalism to the Mosaic Law and teaches that faith is what saved us and not our works. For if works saved us then the wealthy man is always saved because he is able to do more works. But God don't think that way and rather looks a the heart of a man and into his soul. The other extreme is addressed by the Apostle James where some have accepted faith but don't believe they need to live accordingly and can do what they want. James reminds them that their faith without works is not true faith at all and thus will not save them anymore than the demons will be saved who also have faith. Moderation is how to understand all this.
Quote:
"Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand" (Phpp.4:5, KJV).
Other translations say,
Quote:
"Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand" (ESV)
Quote:
"Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand" (NKJV).
Each translation is slightly difference as the Greek word translated moderation in the KJV is an untranslatable word which is why it translates to all the English words it means. Lets see how it translates in the 1534 Tyndale New Testament,
Quote:
Let youre softenes be knowen vnto all men. The lorde is even at honde.
So practice moderation which is gentle and soft and level headed. Don't go off into total extreme thinking. We are not muslims or atheists and there do not live by their moral relativism. We have a balanced and healthy mind which pleases the Lord. The Lord doesn't want us to sin. But this is not the extreme mind-set of Islam. So what would humanity be like if we no longer sinned? How would Allah respond to a completely sinless and righteous world?
Sahih Muslim, Vol.7, Book 49, Hadith [6965] 11 - (2749),
Quote:
"It was narrated that Abu Hurairah said: "The Messenger of Allah said: 'By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, if you did not commit sin, Allah would dispense with you and create people who would commit sin, then ask (Allah) for forgiveness, that he would forgive them."
Sahih Muslim, Vol.2 (Summarized Edition), Book 62, Chapter 7, Hadith 1922
Quote:
"(7) CHAPTER. Sins forgiven
1922.Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger of Allah said: "By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would have swept you out of existence and He would have replaced you by those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, so that he forgives them."
If we didn't sin...Allah would kill us!
So, technically, muslims can sin without consequence. But we Christians are not muslims and we are not to go on sinning and by doing so taking advantage of God's grace. This goes back around to moderation again. So there is a consequence for embracing sin and that is eternal hell. But saying there is no hell is rewarding sin and evil to those who deserve punishment. We do not believe a muslim or an atheist will take our place in hell. Everyone is subject to the judgement of hell who refuses to live in faith. And with faith naturally comes good works. Anything not done out of faith is sin.
If hell bothers you and you don't want to go there then thats totally understandable. I don't want to be there either. So don't go there. It's not like you don't have a better choice because you do! But you do not have eternal life in atheism, nor do you have justice in NewAge beliefs. Christians are expected to live by reason, having a gentile heart of moderation and avoiding extremities of thought.
It is not difficult then to understand the vehement opposition of this, when all said and done the christian message (as far back as we know) is based on the concept of not only where you are going to when you pass from this life but the duration of it, then to add the fear element that made the choice of this message so easy, the whole thing is a mess, a mess that is difficult to break free from.
The great difference between the Greek Church and the Latin Church consisted in this, that the Greek Church looked upon revelation as expressing God in His relation to man, while the Latin Church began with man, and saw primarily man as in relation to God. God's measureless love and grace were viewed as at the disposal of man, or man was viewed as the fallen and guilty rebel measured up before the Judge.
The one commenced with God and His love, operating all things in accord with the counsel of His will from past ages for the ultimate good of the race, ever seeking to draw man to Himself and instruct him with a view to his well-being and growth in grace. The other saw man as on probation, and God as the magistrate. Instead of men being gradually instructed in the ways and mind of God, they must subscribe without question or discussion to the Creed, the rigid and crystallized expression of the Latin Church's views. As Farrar says, the centre of Origen's system was God and hope, while that of Augustine's was punishment and sin; whereas Origen yearns for a final unity, Augustine almost exultingly acquiesces in a frightful and abiding dualism.
If hell bothers you and you don't want to go there then thats totally understandable. I don't want to be there either. So don't go there. It's not like you don't have a better choice because you do! But you do not have eternal life in atheism, nor do you have justice in NewAge beliefs. Christians are expected to live by reason, having a gentile heart of moderation and avoiding extremities of thought.
Didn't come to your mind that people are not afraid of hell for themselves but bother about others and/or abhor the missrepresentation of the God they believe in and that it is a matter of principle since the Bible in 1 Timothy 4:10 clearly states:
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
After all only believers are afraid of going to hell since atheists do not believe in hell at all and use it as pretext to mock Christianity, this is why as an universalist you make no friends with atheists either. As the verse says universalists suffer reproach from both sides. For the most part universalists try to comfort other Christians I guess rather than to make friends with atheists. Ironically I once debated universalism with an atheist and the atheist defended the traditionalists' doctrine he didn't even believe in only to remain in his hostile position towards Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28
makes sense if one is in error they all are since they are based on the same bad translation / interpretation from the start
I understand it is hard to grasp for many, but for 1000 years there was no Bible available at all for the common people who had to rely on a corrupt clergy, however even the worst translations contain the universalist verses and show that "for ever" is not always endless. It's only for a few years now where all people have access to all translations and even the source texts in their original languages.
There is no way 22 translations spanning from 1535 to 2014 are gonna all get it wrong.
Since the translators all believed in endless punishment, what else would you expect, except that they all would mis-translate certain "hell" passages the same way? Obviously. OTOH you can find 22 other translations that disagree with your 22 & never refer to "eternal" "hell".
Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.
What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.
"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)
"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."
I understand it is hard to grasp for many, but for 1000 years there was no Bible available at all for the common people who had to rely on a corrupt clergy, however even the worst translations contain the universalist verses and show that "for ever" is not always endless. It's only for a few years now where all people have access to all translations and even the source texts in their original languages.
If hell bothers you and you don't want to go there then that's totally understandable. I don't want to be there either. So don't go there. It's not like you don't have a better choice because you do! But you do not have eternal life in atheism, nor do you have justice in New Age beliefs. Christians are expected to live by reason, having a gentile heart of moderation and avoiding extremities of thought.
I am neither, Muslim or atheistic. And, an imaginary place of eternal damnation only threatens children who haven't matured. Nowhere, do the Scriptures mention that of eternal punishment, nor will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment.
I am neither, Muslim or atheistic. And, an imaginary place of eternal damnation only threatens children who haven't matured. Nowhere, do the Scriptures mention that of eternal punishment, nor will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment.
I didn't even have to go to the New Testament to quote passages about hell. Sure, the NT as plenty of passages about eternal hell, but I found a very clear one in Daniel and provided 22 translations that all said the same thing. Some of these translations were rated from outstanding, to fair, to very poor, yet they all agreed. This argument is foolish as 22 translations dated from 1535 to 2014 cannot go wrong. Clearly the verse was very easy to translate considering the major lack of variation among translations.
Daniel 12:2,
Quote:
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
I used the MEV since I had the MEV page up. The MEV is one of the more outstanding translations out there. But it really doesn't matter the translation of this verse when they all read the same way. There is no diversity in the verse. This means what you read in plain English is what it means.
The word everylasting translated in the MEV does not mean temporal.
I know, I used to addend one of those 19th century cult churches for a long time and they believed there is no eternal hell. The belief quickly turns into this hell on earth which the church creates for the congregation!
I've been a Christian for 33 years now and have been through the mill when it comes to these 19th century cults and their obsession with heresy. I've seen enough from these 19th century cults to know better than to trust their scams on the Bible. I have learned enough to know never to trust a denomination or movement that doesn't believe in eternal hell and/or reject the Trinity.
I could argue this one more bitterly if I wanted to and win with great ease. But perhaps it is better to apply simple common sense, to discern these things. For if we just learn the Gospel in the 19th century then 2000 years of Christians before these 19th century cults are damned. Fortunately, the Gospel was made known through Jesus Christ and never ceased from the Apostolic Succession. We know our faith and what we believe and have 2000 years of sound doctrine which refutes the heresies of the 19th century cults.
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