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Church? You can’t be serious to think that the concept of morality and what constitutes good and bad comes from a group of people interjecting their own personal views of morality and conjecture about god.
How were our primitive ancient ancestors EXEMPT from injecting their personal views of morality and conjecture about God into the Bible?????
Quote:
There is no rational basis for belief in Jesus Christ without the Bible (nor the existence of Jesus). The Bible is claimed to be the word of god quoted from people who had direct interaction with him and his son. The church is completely removed from any meaningful connection.
I believe that the Bible contains NECESSARY information about Jesus, who He IS, why He IS, what would happen to Him, and what would happen in the future because of Him. I also believe that Jesus conveyed to His disciples and followers what the True Nature of God is (Agape love), described that nature in detail (the Sermon on the Mount, 1st Cor 13,, and Galatians 5) and then demonstrated it unambiguously with His body and life by enduring a brutal and savage scourging and crucifixion while loving even His torturers and murderers because they knew not what they did.
How were our primitive ancient ancestors EXEMPT from injecting their personal views of morality and conjecture about God into the Bible????? I believe that the Bible contains NECESSARY information about Jesus, who He IS, why He IS, what would happen to Him, and what would happen in the future because of Him. I also believe that Jesus conveyed to His disciples and followers what the True Nature of God is (Agape love), described that nature in detail (the Sermon on the Mount, 1st Cor 13,, and Galatians 5) and then demonstrated it unambiguously with His body and life by enduring a brutal and savage scourging and crucifixion while loving even His torturers and murderers because they knew not what they did.
The above is a good point. We don’t know for sure the Bible is accurate or Jesus was quoted correctly but it is the only thing we have to go with. The Bible is claimed to be the actual literal quotes of god and the son of god. Anything else is completely removed from the source (church or writings or dreams of priests or “saints”). As for the veracity of the Bible that topic has been researched and there are hundreds of scientific facts that people didn’t know about for 500-1000 years after it was written which point to it being a source of truth.
Church? You can’t be serious to think that the concept of morality and what constitutes good and bad comes from a group of people interjecting their own personal views of morality and conjecture about god. There is no rational basis for belief in Jesus Christ without the Bible (nor the existence of Jesus). The Bible is claimed to be the word of god quoted from people who had direct interaction with him and his son. The church is completely removed from any meaningful connection.
Hi John620,
I see you have totally ignored what I wrote about the Bible being a poor arbiter of morality in Post No. 162
above. I understand why you do this. You have no choice but to turn a blind eye to all the cruelties, injustices and outrageous acts of indecency which the Bible portrays God as having done.
This is because you have placed the cart before the horse. You have decided that the Bible (in your case, the 66 books of the Protestant canon) is inerrantly the word of God. So where the Bible portrays God as commanding the rape of prepubescent girls or as sending she-bears to tear into pieces boys who merely tease a prophet 'bald-head', or for ordering the stoning of a man to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath, or for instituting slavery and giving rules on how to make a slave who doesn't want to be separated from his family into a permanent slave, you simply turn a blind eye to all these. My church has warned us of this. This makes a bibliolater callous and cold towards injustice and cruelty because deep down, he thinks God is an unjust and cruel God but because he's not allowed to say that, he thinks injustice and cruelty are actually just and kind.
This is what will make a good man become evil because of religion. But if your faith is in a good God and you allow the Bible its right to be wrong (for it was written by a tribe of uncivilised nomads) and you look at the Bible contextually, you will allow that God is really good and the Bible's evil portrayal of God is just tribal anecdotes. The she-bears tearing up 42 boys for teasing a prophet 'bald-head' is just a bedtime story to tell children not to be rude to holy men. Every culture has its kiddy stories and the Hebrews were no exception.
...snip...This makes a bibliolater callous and cold towards injustice and cruelty because deep down, he thinks God is an unjust and cruel God but because he's not allowed to say that, he thinks injustice and cruelty are actually just and kind.
This is what will make a good man become evil because of religion. But if your faith is in a good God and you allow the Bible its right to be wrong (for it was written by a tribe of uncivilised nomads) and you look at the Bible contextually, you will allow that God is really good and the Bible's evil portrayal of God is just tribal anecdotes. The she-bears tearing up 42 boys for teasing a prophet 'bald-head' is just a bedtime story to tell children not to be rude to holy men. Every culture has its kiddy stories and the Hebrews were no exception.
Cheerio!
There is at least one poster here who refers to the bolded as god's "holiness."
That's how sick American Christian Fundamentalism has become.
I see you have totally ignored what I wrote about the Bible being a poor arbiter of morality in Post No. 162
above. I understand why you do this. You have no choice but to turn a blind eye to all the cruelties, injustices and outrageous acts of indecency which the Bible portrays God as having done.
This is because you have placed the cart before the horse. You have decided that the Bible (in your case, the 66 books of the Protestant canon) is inerrantly the word of God. So where the Bible portrays God as commanding the rape of prepubescent girls or as sending she-bears to tear into pieces boys who merely tease a prophet 'bald-head', or for ordering the stoning of a man to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath, or for instituting slavery and giving rules on how to make a slave who doesn't want to be separated from his family into a permanent slave, you simply turn a blind eye to all these. My church has warned us of this. This makes a bibliolater callous and cold towards injustice and cruelty because deep down, he thinks God is an unjust and cruel God but because he's not allowed to say that, he thinks injustice and cruelty are actually just and kind.
This is what will make a good man become evil because of religion. But if your faith is in a good God and you allow the Bible its right to be wrong (for it was written by a tribe of uncivilised nomads) and you look at the Bible contextually, you will allow that God is really good and the Bible's evil portrayal of God is just tribal anecdotes. The she-bears tearing up 42 boys for teasing a prophet 'bald-head' is just a bedtime story to tell children not to be rude to holy men. Every culture has its kiddy stories and the Hebrews were no exception.
Cheerio!
I think you misread every part of the Bible.
As I said before, if there is no source on god’s decrees of right and wrong then every human conception of morality is just pure conjecture and speculation. God defines goodness. It may be completely different than your own personal conception. If god doesn’t exist then really there is no universal right or wrong.
There is at least one poster here who refers to the bolded as god's "holiness."
That's how sick American Christian Fundamentalism has become.
Hii TroutDude,
I am not an American but I don't think we should blame America for everything. Fundamentalism is a problem for any religion in any country.
I quite enjoyed myself in Orlando, Florida last year. I think it was the happiest time of my life. It's difficult to think of anything happier or more pleasurable than Orlando. It's a heaven on earth and that's in the USA.
I am not an American but I don't think we should blame America for everything. Fundamentalism is a problem for any religion in any country.
I quite enjoyed myself in Orlando, Florida last year. I think it was the happiest time of my life. It's difficult to think of anything happier or more pleasurable than Orlando. It's a heaven on earth and that's in the USA.
As I said before, if there is no source on god’s decrees of right and wrong then every human conception of morality is just pure conjecture and speculation. God defines goodness. It may be completely different than your own personal conception.
Hi John620,
No, I didn't misread any part of the Bible. You didn't even state which part is misread and why because you KNOW I was just reading it correctly and honestly without the lies motivated by faith. I'm sure any honest reader can see that.
I agree that God's definition of goodness is the correct one. So how do we know what God's definition is? He created us in his image and he plants deep within us an understanding of what goodness is. This is usually referred to as the conscience. It is this God-given conscience that guided the early Emancipation heroes to go against the Bible which tells us that slavery is God's institution and forged on their own a morality which we accept today and the Church accepts today. Emancipation is certainly the same as giving the Bible a slap on its face but it's what God wants. It's not what the Bible wants but it's God wants. The same with all our ideas of morality. We know that killing 42 boys for merely teasing a prophet 'bald-headed' is wrong. We know that stoning a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath is wrong. Jesus also knew it was wrong which is why he said 'the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath'. But the OT thought it was OK. In fact it thought it was the right thing to do and tells the story of God commanding the stoning of a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath.
The Bible's conception of morality is pure conjecture and speculation, just like the conception of morality in other holy books and other people. But God plants goodness in all of us and if we allow our hearts to sincerely decide what is right and what is wrong, we will know certain things are wrong and immoral, even if holy books like the Bible commands it. We know raping a prepubescent girl is wrong, especially after we have killed her parents, brothers and baby siblings. We know the Bible is wrong for advocating this.
I implore you not to turn your mind away from what I have said but to think of the evils advocated by the Bible and allow God to speak to you. Turn away from bibliolatry and focus on God.
Church? You can’t be serious to think that the concept of morality and what constitutes good and bad comes from a group of people interjecting their own personal views of morality and conjecture about god. There is no rational basis for belief in Jesus Christ without the Bible (nor the existence of Jesus). The Bible is claimed to be the word of god quoted from people who had direct interaction with him and his son. The church is completely removed from any meaningful connection.
You make several statements which may logically be separate from one another. I'd like to address them separately.
MORALITY
Our human concept of morality and law is generally stated in the Golden Rule, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It is not a monopoly of the Judeo-Christian heritage. Religions claim it to be a statement of reciprocity which predates western concepts of behavior and consequence in society. It is most definitely NOT a personal view in that it has been accepted by every society in history on this planet.
Morality may also include sexual behavior, which is entirely different. Religious as well as social rules and laws have generally forbidden homosexuality. The rationale is simple. The family unit is the basic building block of society. Without a stable and well defined family structure, society as a whole tends to break down. The Bible is often criticized for advocating ancient family structure in terms of multiple wives. Hebrew tradition isn't the only one to advocate multiple wives. The idea is simple. A man may have many wives, but he cannot have any women he wishes. There are limits. The gay life style crosses the line into the gray area of promiscuity, which is forbidden in every culture. Thus it is a threat to the family unit. Promiscuity happens even among straight folk, but it is nowhere sanctioned socially.
What is different about Judeo-Christian morality is its relationship with God, not humanity only. The Bible adds to the golden rule by adding God to the formula thereby raising the moral bar to a level beyond that which has been imagined or stated by man. Divine Law tells us how God expects us to live with Him and each other.
Finally, I'd like to ask why no one seems to have a grudge against Muslim sharia law, which forbids homosexual relationships at pain of death. Why are there no vehement protests against Islam?
RATIONAL BASIS FOR THE HISTORIC JESUS
The gospel accounts of the life ministry death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are not the only historic records we have. Numerous historians such as Josephus Pliny the younger and so on have recorded reports of "a Jewish magician" who went about the villages of Samaria and Judea preaching and performing miracles. These reports also include accounts of a terrible storm that raged over the entire Mediterranean basin on the day of Christ's crucifixion and death which are not recorded in the Bible. Reports of Jesus' resurrection are also on record among secular historians.
There are more secular accounts of the life of Jesus than of Julius Caesar. No one seems to doubt the veracity of those ancient records. If we didn't have the gospel accounts of Jesus, the secular records would be sufficient to tell the tale of the Son of God upon earth in those days as well as something of His message.
THE BIBLE
The historic accuracy of the Bible is beyond question. Many of its ancient references have been proven by modern archaeological science. Old Testament accounts of two separate nations of Hebrews often confuse the uninitiated and satisfy the scoffers. Upon close inspection of the text, however, accusations of inconsistency vanish like smoke in the wind. Readers believe what they want to believe and reject the rest. This much is true for any written work including the inspired Word of God in the pages of the Bible.
THE CHURCH Your statement that the church is completely removed from any meaningful connection to the Bible has merit. Modern Christian theology is based upon Greek philosophical interpretation, not the Law and Prophets as presented in the Bible and which was employed by Jesus and the apostles.
Modern Christian sermons and thought are based upon situational ethics, not scriptural principle. Therein does your accusation stand upon reasonable ground. The church, in fact, DOES NOT have any meaningful relationship with either the pages of the Bible it respects (conditionally) or the people who are represented in it (anti-semitism). The words heresy and hypocrite and opportunist apply most accurately to the current relationship of the church with the Word of God.
In point of fact, several major denominations have recently voted and declared the Bible is NOT in fact, the Word of God. This is a current declaration in truth that the church has completely lost its way in heaven and on earth. Meanwhile the spiritual vultures are hard at work snipping away at the edges of the dying remains of Christendom.
hope this helps...
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Last edited by Choir Loft; 02-05-2019 at 07:19 AM..
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