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Curly, I am right beside you with your thoughts on this book..It has become the source of a lot of thinking, sorting and prayerful times for me..I have always questioned the organization of the church and the heirarchy within the confines of that building. It just always seemed that so many of the people were blindly following rules of generations past..How did this happen? Why did the early first century church allow someone other than Christ and the Holy Spirit be their "leader", if you will? Right now I am wondering if it was because of the lack of literacy and the written word? Did they begin to depend on men to "read" the scrolls to them, thereby putting those on a pedestal as being more knowing of Gods intentions..Did this action build the pride on the scholars until they began to think that God was speaking only through them? Did their wisdom bring them political power? Did they begin to build the buildings to give themselves a stage for their oratorial presentations? Did they eventually convince the people (and themselves) that they were the "vessels" through which God spoke? I know I am being rather harsh, but this is what I an thinking at the moment..
Why hasn't God interferred in these 2000 years? God is outside of time.. our years, days or moments in time mean nothing to him.. I think he has interferred through the Holy Spirit that is causing so many people to take a long hard look at what the church seems to have evolved into..
Curly, I am right beside you with your thoughts on this book..It has become the source of a lot of thinking, sorting and prayerful times for me..I have always questioned the organization of the church and the heirarchy within the confines of that building. It just always seemed that so many of the people were blindly following rules of generations past..How did this happen? Why did the early first century church allow someone other than Christ and the Holy Spirit be their "leader", if you will? Right now I am wondering if it was because of the lack of literacy and the written word? Did they begin to depend on men to "read" the scrolls to them, thereby putting those on a pedestal as being more knowing of Gods intentions..Did this action build the pride on the scholars until they began to think that God was speaking only through them? Did their wisdom bring them political power? Did they begin to build the buildings to give themselves a stage for their oratorial presentations? Did they eventually convince the people (and themselves) that they were the "vessels" through which God spoke? I know I am being rather harsh, but this is what I an thinking at the moment..
Why hasn't God interferred in these 2000 years? God is outside of time.. our years, days or moments in time mean nothing to him.. I think he has interferred through the Holy Spirit that is causing so many people to take a long hard look at what the church seems to have evolved into..
My same thoughts! I just didn't know whether to state them.....
I'm thankful for the Holy Spirit to stir this up in my heart. Also how does one go and knowing these things and worship? Its kind of like sitting in the pew and your hiding something so wonderful to share with others.
Actually this book has really set me free from a lot of my thoughts of inferior about who I am in Christ Jesus... and the gifts He has manifested in my heart to share with others. That He has bless and given in Him the same measure of faith to all. I know there are those who have mature and grown in the Lord, my elders, then where my walk is and I need to sit at the feet of Jesus in those lives. So that I too can grow and mature and be a part of proclaiming the truth of the kingdom of God.
No, I don't think your being harsh..... its a heart that is hungry for God's will and truth. That is the way I see Him in all this...because He is going to give it to the one who seeks for and wants to worship Him in truth and spirit..
I have a lot of thoughts towards this chapter. I really don't know what to post. It really in all its context and entirety has made me look in hindsight. I guess the question I keep asking myself and praying about in all this is where am I responsible to God in what I have read....
I can see how this book can be good and yet dangerous. One really has to stay in prayer. Especially walking softly in what this book is saying....
My one question is why has God allowed the church to be this way, that is in how it has done things according to this book, for all these years?
I can see the bad and good fruit of what has gone on...
I've have seen how the pastor becomes burned out because of the reponsibility that has been placed on him that I really don't believe that God intended for him. I also can see how the pastor could be the church planter and move on after the church has been establish in the Holy Spirit and growing towards the strength through the gifts of Jesus in those who are participating in Gods kingdom.
I have some deep thoughts about all of this. Could have the apostasy entered into the church when the disciples died? And came into existence through the first building (structure) church.
I also agree with your thoughts, curly. We need to stay in prayer.. and walk carefully. I would tend to say yes to your question about apostacy entering the church very soon after it was started.
I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before, but this book has been inspiring for me to read, and at the same time kind of exhausting. It seems like there is alot of dividing of "truth and almost-truth" that needs to be done... maybe I'm the only one that feels this way. I'm not sure if I can bring out all my thoughts, but I believe that the scope of the NTC goes far, far beyond simply an open-participatory meeting. That was a result. The working of the church is not only "every member is equal and takes full part" (which is of utmost importance), but also "every member submits and depends on one another in humility".. which creates unity (which is just as vital). Above all, every member submits to God.. whatever his plan may be, and for some it appears to have included leadership.
Following are some verses I got together for discussion.. how do they fit into this chapter?
1 Tim 3:1 ¶ This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 ¶ Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The above verses seem to make it clear that there were "offices" in the NTC.. but they were filled by brethren who were not self-ordained, but rather chosen and given this trust by their own brethren.
1 Tim 4: 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
It sounds like the work of an elder included exhortation and teaching sound doctrine.. and they were looked up to as an example. It mentions in verse 14 that this gift was given, or perhaps publicly recognized, by the laying on of hands. Also, in these verses we can see that "elder" did not necessarily mean "older".
1 Tim. 6: 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 2Tim 1:6 ¶ Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 2Tim:1 ¶ Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 2 Tim 4: 1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. Titus 1:5 ¶ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 ¶ If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 1Peter 5:1 ¶ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 5 ¶ Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Heb 13: 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. ............... :17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
The above verses contain instructions and paint a picture of the working-together of the early church. Exhortations are given to some to lead, preach, and teach.. but I think 1 Peter 5:5 (bolded above) sums it all up. "Yea, all of you be subject one to another and be clothed with humility." This is vital. There is no way that a church could function like the NTC without this... and I believe that this is one of the biggest problems behind the apostacy of the church.. pride. When the church ceased to walk in humility one with another, sharing their burdens, confessing their faults, being of one accord and of one mind.. then this pride (and spiritual laziness) caused the variation from God's plan of a every-member-functioning church... and some were lifted up.. and some were happy to warm the bench. The faithful Church was soon, and forever after would be, a persecuted minority.
The final exhortation of Paul to the elders, encouraging them to continue to take care of the church. This is still an important place to fill today...
Acts 20:17 ¶ And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. 18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: 23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
I'm in the process of renovating two homes and trying to orchestrate a move of my family.
It's exhausting but I think I caught a glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel.
Chapter 5 has been really really good for me.
I do think we seem to hold preachers and pastors to a 'priestly' level and I've often sat in a church and at times not only questioned on whether the Word was being 'rightly divided' but also asked myself 'What makes this man any closer to God than the rest of us?', how is it that he 'knows' what God thinks on so many opinionated subjects.
Case in point: Yesterday I was sitting in church and the preacher started telling the congregation on how glad he was that our little kids ministries had never asked him to do a fund raiser for missions in one of the church buildings. He said that was what Jesus drove the money-changers out for.
I totally disagree.
I totally think that's not a correct interpretation. That raising money for missions inside a church building should be 100% ok!
So does seminary or ordination make this man see something I don't? I dunno.
cg81, you raise some good points in your post.
But in my church(and I'd venture a guess in all Baptist churches) we step way outside the biblical mandate for deacons. Biblically, aren't their responsibilities to care for widows and orphans? Our deacons are involved in everything but that! They are into everything from building improvements to financial decisions for the 'business' of church. They are self-appointed and the body had little to no input into their meetings, agendas, or decisions. Sure every major decision is presented to the body for a vote but I NEVER seen a proposal come up that anyone dissented against. It's weird. And it ain't biblical.
I do believe that we elevate certain people to places of esteem not prescribed in scripture. I love my pastor although I have serious issues with obvious lack of true leadership for the 'laity'.
I think a true NTC wouldn't have an appointed leader save for the Holy Spirit, and there'd be no cause to question that, right?
Alpha, I'm sure we're all looking forward to when you can be a more frequent poster! Good luck with your move!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
cg81, you raise some good points in your post.
But in my church(and I'd venture a guess in all Baptist churches) we step way outside the biblical mandate for deacons. Biblically, aren't their responsibilities to care for widows and orphans? Our deacons are involved in everything but that! They are into everything from building improvements to financial decisions for the 'business' of church. They are self-appointed and the body had little to no input into their meetings, agendas, or decisions. Sure every major decision is presented to the body for a vote but I NEVER seen a proposal come up that anyone dissented against. It's weird. And it ain't biblical.
I do believe that we elevate certain people to places of esteem not prescribed in scripture. I love my pastor although I have serious issues with obvious lack of true leadership for the 'laity'.
I agree.. what most of Christendom thinks of when they think of "pastors" or "deacons", however well-meaning, is not a picture of the NTC.
Quote:
I think a true NTC wouldn't have an appointed leader save for the Holy Spirit, and there'd be no cause to question that, right?
I agree... Christ is the only head, the Holy Spirit the sole leader... and yet the Holy Spirit has many avenues to speak. But at the same time no one should be stifling His voice or taking His place. If we are feeling that the "pastor" is speaking to us, rather than having the warm, alive inspiration of the Holy Spirit speaking, (through our brother, who may or may not be a "leader"), then something is probably not right.
Every one must be a servant.. everyone must be submitted and accountable to each other.. the Holy Spirit must be followed, God must be the head. That is was the life and breath of the NTC.. if any one of these elements would leave, it would have ceased to exist.
And I agree that the book does give us a picture of this.. a living, breathing organizm..
But that's why I posted those scriptures... what kind of picture do we get from reading them if we examine them? How do they support or go along with chapter 5 OR modern-day Christian churches? IMO, they don't completely fit with either...
Last edited by cg81; 05-19-2008 at 02:20 PM..
Reason: additional thoughts
I think a true NTC wouldn't have an appointed leader save for the Holy Spirit, and there'd be no cause to question that, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
I agree... Christ is the only head, the Holy Spirit the sole leader... and yet the Holy Spirit has many avenues to speak.
To illustrate this.. let's say that my brother sees something in me that he has a question about, and comes and asks me about it. (or vice-versa)
I can either have an attitude of "I'm in contact with the Holy Spirit, so He'll let me know if I need to change, thank you!"
or... I can see that the Holy Spirit is speaking thru my brother. (and, thru this, it can open my mind to what the Holy Spirit wants to say to ME.) Why God sometimes operates this way, I don't know.. but dependence on each other (versus self-sufficiency) sure would cause our love to grow, would it not?
To illustrate this.. let's say that my brother sees something in me that he has a question about, and comes and asks me about it. (or vice-versa)
I can either have an attitude of "I'm in contact with the Holy Spirit, so He'll let me know if I need to change, thank you!"
or... I can see that the Holy Spirit is speaking thru my brother. (and, thru this, it can open my mind to what the Holy Spirit wants to say to ME.) Why God sometimes operates this way, I don't know.. but dependence on each other (versus self-sufficiency) sure would cause our love to grow, would it not?
Oh I completely agree.
But in the church I attend we have to ask the pastor's permission to even have a bible study.
Does that seem right?
And the irony of it all is, I can kinda understand.
Who's to stop someone from starting a study say on Universalism, against the Trinity, or 'if you ain't been dunked, your sunk' or any other variance of a false teaching and bring that to the congregants.
That being said I also think if you preach the Truth, teach the Truth, pray for Truth, and test everything against the whole of scripture, then the Truth will be evident and false teachings will be taken care of.
But if we've been trained to passively sit there and be spoon fed from one 'special' person, then we aren't even equipped for discernment. All we can do is nod our heads up and down or left and right, not really knowing why.
But in the church I attend we have to ask the pastor's permission to even have a bible study.
Does that seem right?
And the irony of it all is, I can kinda understand.
Who's to stop someone from starting a study say on Universalism, against the Trinity, or 'if you ain't been dunked, your sunk' or any other variance of a false teaching and bring that to the congregants.
(Sorry, I'm kind of multi-posting here..) but that's where every-member accountability comes in. The NTC was not only about every member sharing.. Accountability and dependability was also a part of it. That's why IMO there is alot more to the NTC than what is brought out in the book. It's a big picture.. and every-member participation meetings was only a part of it.
To illustrate this.. let's say that my brother sees something in me that he has a question about, and comes and asks me about it. (or vice-versa)
I can either have an attitude of "I'm in contact with the Holy Spirit, so He'll let me know if I need to change, thank you!"
or... I can see that the Holy Spirit is speaking thru my brother. (and, thru this, it can open my mind to what the Holy Spirit wants to say to ME.) Why God sometimes operates this way, I don't know.. but dependence on each other (versus self-sufficiency) sure would cause our love to grow, would it not?
Am I off topic in even posting this?
Why is it either/or?
June read the above post, and immediately thought to herself:
"Wouldn't the Holy Spirit be in the interaction, the inter-dependent connection itself?"
Because June is thinking if the Holy Spirit exists, and if the Holy Spirit exists in people, then one would have had to already enter into an interdependent relationship with...the Holy Spirit. Which, in turn, would automatically be brought into the above exchange in your example, cg?
In other words, (and let's face it, June doesn't have a gosh darn clue what the heck she is talking about here!) in the above cited example, if you are filled with the Holy Spirit (interdependent relationship) and so too is the person you are having that interaction with, then wouldn't that interdependence also be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit as well?
I truly have no idea what it is I just asked...
Oh well.
Back to the music.
Take gentle care.
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in the above cited example, if you are filled with the Holy Spirit (interdependent relationship) and so too is the person you are having that interaction with, then wouldn't that interdependence also be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit as well?
