What is Christianity anyway? (incarnation, Messiah, believe, scriptures)
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I think this comment by Gordon B. Hinckley (15th President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is relevant here, as well as in most aspects of our lives:
“I hope and pray that if we err, we will err on the side of mercy.”
I'm not sure who appointed you to be God's right hand man, but you definitely are persistent in your attempts to deny some of us the right to identify as Christians; I'll give you that. Has it ever even occurred to you that your opinion as to who is and who is not a Christian is not going to matter in the slightest when we all stand before God to be judged?
If I worship Jesus Christ, what on earth should I call myself except a "Christian"?
Do I think my opinion will matter? No, why would I think that? Have I said anything suggesting I think that?
I think the truth may well matter, and that my convictions regarding the truth may well matter. I think false convictions on the part of myself or anyone else may matter. This is the point of my post: Do the core, historical truth claims of Christianity matter at all?
You are begging the questions raised in my OP. Are you (or anyone else) in fact worshipping the actual Jesus Christ? Is every understanding of Jesus equally valid? If so, what meaning does the term "Christian" retain?
How - and, specifically, what in my post - suggests I am trying to deny anyone the right to identify as a Christian? I am questioning whether, if the term "Christian" can be divorced from the core truth claims that have historically defined Christianity, the term means anything at all.
I am questioning why, unless we are witnessing an attempted deconstruction of the faith, the beliefs and doctrines that have defined Christianity for 2000 years are now deemed primitive, barbaric, ignorant, subhuman? I am questioning how and why they provoke such rage even on the part of people who claim to be Christians themselves.
I personally hate long posts, but sometimes the pithy TroutDude approach just won't do the job ...
All religions make truth claims. If Christianity is true, Hinduism isn’t true (and vice-versa).
Some of the claims are fundamental to what the religion is. If there is no god, or there is a pantheon of gods, Christianity isn’t true.
To claim to be a Christian or Hindu or Muslim has always been understood to mean “I accept the core truth claims of the religion.” To be a Christian is to have a particular understanding of, and orientation to, reality.
Suppose someone says “I don’t believe God exists, but I consider myself a Christian” or “I don’t believe Jesus ever existed, but I consider myself a Christian.” For purposes of this forum, apparently, this person is a Christian – or at least we’re prohibited from challenging her characterization of herself.
Presumably, even here we could ask “What do you mean when you say you consider yourself a Christian? What is your understanding of Christianity?”
Suppose the answer is “Oh, the Golden Rule really resonates with me” or “I really like the messages I get from Jesus on my Ouija board.” OK, fine, for purposes of this forum the person is still a Christian.
We could keep probing and perhaps discover this person actually rejects all the core truth claims by which Christianity has historically been defined. The person may finally say “Eh, who cares about those truth claims? My Christianity suits me just fine.”
Is this not slightly disorienting? Is it not some sort of Jacques Derrida-like postmodern deconstruction of the term “Christianity,” whereby the term can mean whatever each of us chooses it to mean? Could I not validly characterize myself as a Christian while actually accepting all the truth claims of Hinduism?
Would “Christianity” now have any meaning at all?
It appears to me this is pretty much the actual state of Christianity on the forum.
Which is fine. I don’t say anyone here who claims to be a Christian isn’t a Christian, both because this is prohibited by the TOS and because, in fact, only God can make this determination. (The prohibition apparently doesn’t apply to my traditional Christian beliefs, which have repeatedly been characterized as barbaric, disgusting, subhuman and whatnot, but we’ll let it go.)
On my current thread about the OT, one participant just stated "We are correcting our ignorant, primitive, savage, and barbaric, ancestors' understanding of both God and Jesus USING the revelations and unambiguous demonstration of God's true nature by Jesus." What is this, other than deconstruction?
The First Century Christian community and the twenty centuries of believers who followed were ignorant, primitive, savage and barbaric? Paul and Luke were ignorant, primitive, savage and barbaric? Irenaeus, St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin? Even Jesus himself, unless you believe the Gospels are almost complete fiction?
In the real world, off the forum, I do have difficulty seeing how anyone who doesn’t accept the core truth claims of Christianity – those central claims that have historically defined the religion and distinguished it from all others – could reasonably be characterized as a Christian.
I have difficulty understanding why such a person would even want to characterize himself or herself as a Christian.
My guess is that many people here might prefer “follower of Jesus” or “believer in Jesus” to “Christian.” But as I’ve stated on other threads, this too is not without problems.
Which Jesus? The one described in the NT? Apparently not. The one described in the verses of the NT with which you agree? The one who spoke to you in a vision, contravening much of the NT?
This, too, becomes a process of deconstruction. “Jesus as I would like him to have been” is pretty close to no Jesus at all, or so it seems to me.
Here, stated as generically and doctrine-free as possible, are what seem to me to be the most minimal central truth claims of historical Christianity. If you’re a Christian who disagrees with any of these, perhaps you can explain your position.
God is the creator of all that exists and the author of life.
God is supremely holy, wise, loving, just and powerful.
God is a spiritual being who takes a providential interest in his creation.
God has revealed himself to humans through the creation, the scriptures, the person of Jesus, and the workings of his Holy Spirit.
Humans are mere creatures, wholly dependent upon and accountable to God.
Humans have become estranged from God through disobedience to his commands in the exercise of their free will.
Because God is supremely holy and just, humans are incapable curing the estrangement through their own creaturely efforts.
Through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, God has graciously satisfied the requirements of his holiness and justice and cured the estrangement for those who turn to him in repentance and gratitude.
Those who are saved will enter into God’s eternal kingdom; those who aren’t saved will not.
This seems to me to be bare-bones Christianity that every non-heretical segment of the faith – Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant – would have agreed with over the past 2000 years. Do you dispute this, or do you agree that what we see on the forum is indeed a Derrida-like deconstruction of what “Christianity” means?
I had originally thought the TOS for the forum were intended simply as a peace-keeping measure and an effort to maintain a respectful tone in dialogue. And this may indeed have been the primary intent. But it does seem to me to have opened the door to a deconstruction of Christianity whereby Christianity is whatever I say it is and you can’t challenge me (unless I say it’s traditional mainstream Christianity, in which case you apparently can challenge me - but we'll let it go).
As an atheist, if someone tells me they are Christian, I believe them. I might ask what sect or denomination, and that gives me a pretty good idea of what their beliefs are.
I am disappointed that you threw John Calvin into your mix. Calvin was a horrible tyrant, one who commanded many deaths, and is anything BUT a Christian that should be put on any kind of a pedestal. He was the epitome of a Christian Taliban. His dictatorship in Geneva bound church and state together, which might explain why many in America are attracted to the concept. A despicable human being is the only fitting epitaph and the way he should be remembered.
Again, being an atheist, I won't address your list. Suffice it to say, I find much of it objectionable, and it has nothing to do with a belief in the Christian god or Jesus.
Do I think my opinion will matter? No, why would I think that? Have I said anything suggesting I think that?
You do appear to think that your definition of "Christianity" is somehow more legitimate and valid than mine. You're not deny that now, are you?
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I think the truth may well matter, and that my convictions regarding the truth may well matter. I think false convictions on the part of myself or anyone else may matter. This is the point of my post: Do the core, historical truth claims of Christianity matter at all?
Of course they matter, and that's why I can't buy into yours.
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You are begging the questions raised in my OP. Are you (or anyone else) in fact worshipping the actual Jesus Christ?
Exactly how many options are there? There is only one Jesus Christ. Everyone who is worshipping Jesus Christ is worshipping the "actual" Jesus Christ.
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Is every understanding of Jesus equally valid?
Depends on what you mean by "valid." You appear to be saying that a person cannot be worshipping the "actual" Jesus Christ is anything about the Being he worships is factually inaccurate. I do believe God wants us to understand who He is, what His Son's relationship to Him is, and what our relationship to them is. I don't believe that any misunderstanding is going to be grounds for condemnation, though. Do you?
I could describe Donald Trump in one way and you could describe him in a completely different way. Would that mean we were not talking about the same Donald Trump?
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If so, what meaning does the term "Christian" retain?
One who worships Jesus Christ and attempts to follow Jesus Christ's example.
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How - and, specifically, what in my post - suggests I am trying to deny anyone the right to identify as a Christian? I am questioning whether, if the term "Christian" can be divorced from the core truth claims that have historically defined Christianity, the term means anything at all.
You can't even prove what those "core claims" are! Do you have any idea how fragmented Christianity was, even by the end of the 1st century? Catholicism's "core doctrines" are not the same as Protestantism's "core doctrines." You want to talk "core doctrines," then you have to go back to what Jesus Christ's contemporaries believed, and you can't do that by putting words in their mouths that they never said.
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I am questioning why, unless we are witnessing an attempted deconstruction of the faith, the beliefs and doctrines that have defined Christianity for 2000 years are now deemed primitive, barbaric, ignorant, subhuman?
I don't know. I'm not the one deeming them such.
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I am questioning how and why they provoke such rage even on the part of people who claim to be Christians themselves.
Rage? Anything you've seen on City-Data so far does not even resemble "rage." That said, no one who genuinely considers himself to be a Christian would not be offended by someone else telling him he's not the real thing. That's a no-brainer.
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