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They weren't apostles till they were CHOSEN! and Simon Peter FIRST!!
The order of who was chosen first or who was chosen last had no bearing on anything. Jesus even alludes to this Matthew 20:16.
“16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.”
It makes not matter. Peter was simply one of the twelve. Jesus did not select Peter to take over as the head of church after he ascended to heaven. Jesus chose twelve not just one.
The order of who was chosen first or who was chosen last had no bearing on anything. Jesus even alludes to this Matthew 20:16.
“16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.”
It makes not matter. Peter was simply one of the twelve. Jesus did not select Peter to take over as the head of church after he ascended to heaven. Jesus chose twelve not just one.
Hi ketchikanite, sorry I missed your post way back, wasn't trying to ignore you.
So yes, even as Solomon chose 12 governors,
there was still Ahishar clearly as overall administrator,
as prototype to the line traceable all the way down to Eliakim,
upon who's shoulder the Lord rested the keys,
as Jesus Himself alludeds to upon passing the keys to Simon-Peter {Isa22:22/Mat16:19}.
This fact and all it's surrounding scriptural support would have been obvious to the twelve,
whose 'minds had been open to the scriptures',
and not lost as it is in the current generations,
who can barly grasp a single line of scripture at a time.
Suan Sona does a good job of demonstrating the scriptural facts,
if you're willing to build a refutation case pleading otherwise:
(at time= 2:52:33 - in case the youtube drop-in below the link doesn't drop straight to that time) https://youtu.be/r9NciyR6nb4?t=10330
We know he went to Rome, a 1st century letter from the elders in Rome told us he died there. It did not say he was a pope,
"Pope" is a nickname that means "father". Until the nickname was developed and widely used, what we now call "the Pope" was simply the Bishop of Rome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
and as it was telling the people in Corinth to behave, we can be very confident popes did not exist in the 1st century, otherwise they would have used Papal authority for this.
If the letter is giving instructions or orders, then that is a use of authority. If there was a bishop of Rome in the 1st century, then there was in fact a pope, as they are one and the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
It is also probable bishops did not exist, despite the letter allegedly being written by an alleged bishop.
The word "bishop" is used in the New Testament ("επίσκοπος"), so it is evident that the office is as old as Christianity. I wonder what you think a "bishop" is...
Simon is NOT Peter (the "Rock"). That is a human misinterpretation that has been used to elevate the Catholic Church and its clergy as Apostolic authority. JESUS is "Petra" and HE alone is the authority on God. He abides with us as the Comforter (Holy Spirit of God) within our consciousness to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts" with agape love so we would need NO MAN to teach us!
When we are in the states of mind associated with the "mind of Christ" we are guided by the Holy Spirit and cannot do anything wrong. We can only do wrong in other states of mind. All so-called authority about God is of human origins and for human reasons that may or may not be in accord with what God actually wants from us. Trust Jesus who abides with us forever and NOT men who have their own agendas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
"Pope" is a nickname that means "father". Until the nickname was developed and widely used, what we now call "the Pope" was simply the Bishop of Rome.
If the letter is giving instructions or orders, then that is a use of authority. If there was a bishop of Rome in the 1st century, then there was in fact a pope, as they are one and the same.
The word "bishop" is used in the New Testament ("επίσκοπος"), so it is evident that the office is as old as Christianity. I wonder what you think a "bishop" is...
All that you speak about is of human origin and has nothing to do with Jesus or God, IMO. Jesus wanted us to use His Holy Spirit of agape (Comforter) as our guide to what God has "written in our hearts" with agape love, NOT MEN who claim "apostolic authority." The desire to claim such authority is pure human vanity and hubris that will always be with us, I'm afraid. It is a travesty.
"Pope" is a nickname that means "father". Until the nickname was developed and widely used, what we now call "the Pope" was simply the Bishop of Rome.
If the letter is giving instructions or orders, then that is a use of authority. If there was a bishop of Rome in the 1st century, then there was in fact a pope, as they are one and the same.
The word "bishop" is used in the New Testament ("επίσκοπος"), so it is evident that the office is as old as Christianity. I wonder what you think a "bishop" is...
But Paul was the first to preach to the non Jews so how could there already be a Pope in Rome ?
And Paul was Jewish himself.
But Paul was the first to preach to the non Jews so how could there already be a Pope in Rome ?
And Paul was Jewish himself.
There was no bishop in Rome until Peter went there and established his see. Unsure as to when the church there was actually established, or if it may have already been established by Paul before Peter physically went there.
This thread is an offshoot of the LGBT thread that veered off topic onto the subject of Peter and his role in the Church, and whether or not he died (or was ever) in Rome.
Specifically, it's a response to these two posts:
My assertion is that Christianity had always believed that Peter died in Rome. Claims asserting otherwise are very recent, and the burden rests on the skeptics to this original claim to prove it false. Attempts have been made by Protestants to do this over the years, and the attempts have failed every time.
The Apostolic Church was One until the East-West Schism of 1054. However, even the Eastern church (Orthodox) acknowledges the see of Peter as having some degree of primacy, though they would debate its implications.
My understanding is that Peter was a leader (THE Leader?) in Rome, and died there, yes. The basis for the Quo Vadis novel. Yet we know very little about it all. And Luke finishes Acts before Paul was beheaded in Rome. Maybe the location of his death is an assumption?
The Apostolic Church was not so monolithic as you describe it to be, back when. There are indications in the 4th Gospel of tension between the "greater church" which identified with the Synoptics and the Community of the Beloved Disciple. "Their" different flavor of church depended on a related, true, but separate root.
Institutionally, Rome did indeed become Primal in the West; Istanbul in the East.
The order of who was chosen first or who was chosen last had no bearing on anything. Jesus even alludes to this Matthew 20:16.
“16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.”
It makes not matter. Peter was simply one of the twelve. Jesus did not select Peter to take over as the head of church after he ascended to heaven. Jesus chose twelve not just one.
Keep in mind: we are reading versions of events. Even the written gospels themselves are interpretations.
"Pope" is a nickname that means "father". Until the nickname was developed and widely used, what we now call "the Pope" was simply the Bishop of Rome.
If the letter is giving instructions or orders, then that is a use of authority. If there was a bishop of Rome in the 1st century, then there was in fact a pope, as they are one and the same.
The word "bishop" is used in the New Testament ("επίσκοπος"), so it is evident that the office is as old as Christianity. I wonder what you think a "bishop" is...
Episcopalians (and Episcopal simply means the church is overseen by bishops) still refer to the Pope as the Bishop of Rome.
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