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It's true that God never disowns us. But it is possible to reject God as our Father and all the benefits that go along with it.
The prodigal son's father never stopped loving him; but for a time, the son wanted nothing to do with his father's love.
Your ^ above ^ post brought to mind the account about Jacob and Esau.
If one were to ultimately reject Jesus and die in that state, then it's proof that that person was never one of the sheep. We do believe in predestination, just not in the way Calvin did.
So God is simply choosing those that choose him? Is that what you believe?
Yes, a person can fall away ( aka reject ) according to Hebrews 6:4-6; Matthew 12:32.
True, Not another person, but only the person himself would or could do the moving away - John 10:28-29
This is why there is the warning given at 1 Corinthians 10:12 to beware......
So then you believe that the God of the universe is entirely dependent on the choices of sinful man in regards to salvation?
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church;
and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven,
and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.[/i]
How did this corrupt instruction to discriminate against ANYONE get past the so-called stewards of Christ? Ask yourself, what caused Jesus to stand out among the Pharisees and religious leaders of the time. It was how HE treated tax collectors and pagans. Why didn't this instruction say treat them as JESUS treated them? Why wasn't this immediately suspect as corruption by men? I could do this sort of thing with much of the Catholic self-serving so-called interpretations of Jesus' instructions but I suspect it would fall on deaf ears.
There is ONLY ONE intercessor and only one authority - Jesus Christ the Word of God - and He abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts" with His agape love. Fallible men simply do not have the kind of agape love that Jesus has and they are too self-serving to be trusted. If what is claimed is NOT compatible with the Holy Spirit of agape love, it is NOT from God or Jesus, period.
So God is simply choosing those that choose him? Is that what you believe?
No. We can't know the mind of God or why He chose those He did. What we do know is that He has chosen a people, and that He will not lose any that He has chosen.
No. We can't know the mind of God or why He chose those He did. What we do know is that He has chosen a people, and that He will not lose any that He has chosen.
So then you believe that the God of the universe is entirely dependent on the choices of sinful man in regards to salvation?
I am wondering if you have an comments about John 6:44 and John 6:65 _____________________________
Would God choose someone who is against Him ________
After all, the Creator does Not view us as a face-less mask but when one's heart is rightly disposed towards Him.
- Psalm 11:5; Proverbs 21:2; Acts 13:48
Catholic theology doesn't fit into Protestant categories.
The funniest thing is when people ask "are Catholics Calvinist or Arminian?"
"Catholicism teaches the doctrine of predestination. The Catholic Catechism says, ''To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of 'predestination', he includes in it each person's free response to his grace.'' Therefore, in the Catholic conception of predestination, free will is not denied...
Augustine of Hippo laid the foundation for much of the later Catholic teaching on predestination. His teachings on grace and free will were largely adopted by the Second Council of Orange, whose decrees were directed against the Semipelagians. Augustine wrote,
'[God] promised not from the power of our will but from His own predestination. For He promised what He Himself would do, not what men would do. Because, although men do those good things which pertain to God’s worship, He Himself makes them to do what He has commanded; it is not they that cause Him to do what He has promised. Otherwise the fulfilment of God’s promises would not be in the power of God, but in that of men'
Augustine also teaches that people have free will. For example, in 'On Grace and Free Will', (see especially chapters II–IV) Augustine states that 'He [God] has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in man a free choice of will,' and that 'God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards.' (chap. II)
Thomas Aquinas' views concerning predestination are largely in agreement with Augustine and can be summarized by many of his writings in his Summa Theologiæ:
'God does reprobate some. For it was said above that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above. Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above. Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.'
..... What we do know is that He has chosen a people, and that He will not lose any that He has chosen.
He (God) does Not lose any, but the person himself can loose himself from God.
This is why there's the warning given at 1st Corinthians 10:12; Proverbs 28:14.
So, only the person himself (No one else) can remove himself from God's protective hand.
"and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.".
How did this corrupt instruction to discriminate against ANYONE get past the so-called stewards of Christ? Ask yourself, what caused Jesus to stand out among the Pharisees and religious leaders of the time. It was how HE treated tax collectors and pagans. Why didn't this instruction say treat them as JESUS treated them? Why wasn't this immediately suspect as corruption by men? I could do this sort of thing with much of the Catholic self-serving so-called interpretations of Jesus' instructions but I suspect it would fall on deaf ears.
There is ONLY ONE intercessor and only one authority - Jesus Christ the Word of God - and He abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts" with His agape love. Fallible men simply do not have the kind of agape love that Jesus has and they are too self-serving to be trusted. If what is claimed is NOT compatible with the Holy Spirit of agape love, it is NOT from God or Jesus, period.
Hi Mystic - I think you're interpreting that (bolded) wrong - It's NOT instructing one to treat them badly.
I have always understood it to mean exactly as you stated, how Jesus treated them, as He would to any stranger,
inviting them in, trying to win them over, and not trying to force or enforce anything;
Catholics do NOT exercise that hideous abusive practice of 'shunning' , and neither should any Christian!
Last edited by CCCyou; 06-30-2021 at 01:42 PM..
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