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I sympathize with Rapturites who are busy chewing on their nails and watching the headlines for any news that can be spinned by prophecy gurus into anything remotely resembling the Apocalypse. I used to be in that camp myself until about 2008 when I came to the painful realization that the rapture was never going to come. 2008 was a watershed year, in case the rapturites don't know. It marked the end of any possible extension of the generation Jesus talked about that is the darling of prophecy gurus
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Matthew 24:32-34 - 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When its branch is yet tender [the beginning of the fig tree's blossoming--General Allenby enters Jerusalem 1917] and putteth forth leaves [Israel becomes a nation again (1948)] ye know that summer is nigh [you know the countdown to the last generation has begun]
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it [the end of the world] is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Nobody disputes that a Biblical generation is 40 years. That was clearly established in Exodus when the Israelites wandered in the desert 40 years "till that present generation died off".
The generation that saw the establishment of Israel in 1948 ended in 1988. If one really wants to push the envelope they can say, without much scriptural foundation, mind you, that the countdown started in 1967 with the capture of Jerusalem. This is not Biblical, but I'll give it to the rapturites anyway. That still leaves the fact that that generation which commenced in 1967 ended in 2007-2008. Some die-hard prophecy gurus are going out on an imaginary limb and saying that the generation ends in 2017. But even by the wildest stretch of the imagination they could make a case for this that would still leave the glaring fact that no 7-year tribulation has commenced in 2010, which should have kicked off with the pretribulation rapture. There's not even a mid-tribulation rapture in the offing since we are more than 3 1/2 years (1260 days) past 2010. The final embarrassment for the pro-rapturites is them painfully trying with all their might to stretch a generation to 70 years using David's lifetime or something. Again, totally non-Biblical. We are now talking about a lifespan, not a generation. A generation, by strict definition
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A generation is typically twenty years long. Generation X for example, spans from the 1960's to the 1970's. Generations in the sense of family usually refers to the difference between grandparents, parents and children.
A generation typically is the time it takes for a baby to grow and have children of its own. That's 40 years maximum. A 70 year old cannot start a new generation biologically.
Now let's look at the state of the world:
* a few earthquakes here and there but nothing that portends the kinds of stuff described in Revelation, not even the four horsemen.
* no major wars at all, not even on the horizon. No rumors of wars, no signs of wars--absolutely nothing but a few skirmishes in a few remote places like Africa that have absolutely relevance to Revelation. Even the Syrian conflict has pretty much resolved itself.
* absolutely no sign or hint of a charismatic figure that even remotely resembles the fabled antichrist who will take over the "revived Roman Empire".
* WHAT REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE? Europe is on the brink of splintering as the Euro struggles to stay alive. And the European Union is composed of 27 countries--far too many to be the 10 toes of the statue Daniel interpreted in Neb's dream.
* absolutely no sign of the temple being built on the site of Herod's Temple now occupied by the Muslim Dome of the Rock--and no indications it will be built there anytime in the near or distant future.
* Iran's new President is much more amenable to peace talks with Israel. Certainly he is not the nutjob that 'Am-a-damn-nut-job' was before him.
* Russia is in greater cooperation with the United States than at any time in its history. And Russia is posing no existential threats of any kind to Israel (Gog-Magog War, remember that? I didn't think so)
* No 7-year treaty with the antichrist that supposedly kicks off the tribulation is even hinted at in Israeli politics. Mention a 7-year treaty with the Palestianians, let alone one brokered by a literal "world leader" called antichrist and Jews will fit you for a straitjacket.
In short it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for anything to occur that would portend the end as Hal Lindsey and others have described. Quite the contrary, everything they said would happen has NOT materialized and has in fact gone in the opposite direction.
The generation Jesus spoke of is long gone and is history.
Now if pro-rapture people want to get up and debate any of the facts I've presented here feel free to do so. But I warn you this is not an esoteric debate on UR vs ET. These are cold hard facts that cannot be disputed.
I sympathize with Rapturites who are busy chewing on their nails and watching the headlines for any news that can be spinned by prophecy gurus into anything remotely resembling the Apocalypse. I used to be in that camp myself until about 2008 when I came to the painful realization that the rapture was never going to come. 2008 was a watershed year, in case the rapturites don't know. It marked the end of any possible extension of the generation Jesus talked about that is the darling of prophecy gurus
Nobody disputes that a Biblical generation is 40 years. That was clearly established in Exodus when the Israelites wandered in the desert 40 years "till that present generation died off".
The generation that saw the establishment of Israel in 1948 ended in 1988. If one really wants to push the envelope they can say, without much scriptural foundation, mind you, that the countdown started in 1967 with the capture of Jerusalem. This is not Biblical, but I'll give it to the rapturites anyway. That still leaves the fact that that generation which commenced in 1967 ended in 2007-2008. Some die-hard prophecy gurus are going out on an imaginary limb and saying that the generation ends in 2017. But even by the wildest stretch of the imagination they could make a case for this that would still leave the glaring fact that no 7-year tribulation has commenced in 2010, which should have kicked off with the pretribulation rapture. There's not even a mid-tribulation rapture in the offing since we are more than 3 1/2 years (1260 days) past 2010. The final embarrassment for the pro-rapturites is them painfully trying with all their might to stretch a generation to 70 years using David's lifetime or something. Again, totally non-Biblical. We are now talking about a lifespan, not a generation. A generation, by strict definition
A generation typically is the time it takes for a baby to grow and have children of its own. That's 40 years maximum. A 70 year old cannot start a new generation biologically.
Now let's look at the state of the world:
* a few earthquakes here and there but nothing that portends the kinds of stuff described in Revelation, not even the four horsemen.
* no major wars at all, not even on the horizon. No rumors of wars, no signs of wars--absolutely nothing but a few skirmishes in a few remote places like Africa that have absolutely relevance to Revelation. Even the Syrian conflict has pretty much resolved itself.
* absolutely no sign or hint of a charismatic figure that even remotely resembles the fabled antichrist who will take over the "revived Roman Empire".
* WHAT REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE? Europe is on the brink of splintering as the Euro struggles to stay alive. And the European Union is composed of 27 countries--far too many to be the 10 toes of the statue Daniel interpreted in Neb's dream.
* absolutely no sign of the temple being built on the site of Herod's Temple now occupied by the Muslim Dome of the Rock--and no indications it will be built there anytime in the near or distant future.
* Iran's new President is much more amenable to peace talks with Israel. Certainly he is not the nutjob that 'Am-a-damn-nut-job' was before him.
* Russia is in greater cooperation with the United States than at any time in its history. And Russia is posing no existential threats of any kind to Israel (Gog-Magog War, remember that? I didn't think so)
* No 7-year treaty with the antichrist that supposedly kicks off the tribulation is even hinted at in Israeli politics. Mention a 7-year treaty with the Palestianians, let alone one brokered by a literal "world leader" called antichrist and Jews will fit you for a straitjacket.
In short it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for anything to occur that would portend the end as Hal Lindsey and others have described. Quite the contrary, everything they said would happen has NOT materialized and has in fact gone in the opposite direction.
The generation Jesus spoke of is long gone and is history.
Now if pro-rapture people want to get up and debate any of the facts I've presented here feel free to do so. But I warn you this is not an esoteric debate on UR vs ET. These are cold hard facts that cannot be disputed.
There is no rapture coming.
Neither Matthew chapters 24 or 25 have anything to do with the Church age which will be terminated with the rapture of the Church. Everything in Matthew 24 concerns the Tribulation which will occur at some point after the Church has been removed from the earth. The signs mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 have to do with Christ's Second coming at the end of the Tribulation. The rapture will occur before anything in Matthew 24 takes place.
The rapture of the Church is Imminent which means that there is no prophecy which must be fulfilled before the rapture can occur. It could have occurred at any point of time in the history of the Church. There are no signs by which one can say that it will occur in 'this generation.' While the establishment of Israel in 1948 may suggest that the rapture is near, it is not, contrary to popular belief, a sign which indicates that the rapture will absolutely occur in a given time frame.
The rapture is Biblical and will occur according to God's timing. In this dispensation, God is calling out a unique group of people called 'Church' who are by means of the baptism of the Holy Sprit placed into union with Christ and is called both the 'body of Christ', and the 'bride of Christ'. When God has determined that the 'body of Christ' is complete, the Church will be taken off the earth, and then at some point, perhaps even a few years later, the Tribulation will begin with the signing of a covenant with Israel made by the man of lawlessness who in Daniel 9:26-27 is referred to as the prince who is to come. The man of lawlessness cannot appear until the church has been removed from the earth.
Your entire premise upon which you base your dismissal of the rapture, including the failed predictions of date setters, is wrong.
Neither Matthew chapters 24 or 25 have anything to do with the Church age which will be terminated with the rapture of the Church. Everything in Matthew 24 concerns the Tribulation which will occur at some point after the Church has been removed from the earth. The signs mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 have to do with Christ's Second coming at the end of the Tribulation. The rapture will occur before anything in Matthew 24 takes place.
The rapture of the Church is Imminent which means that there is no prophecy which must be fulfilled before the rapture can occur. It could have occurred at any point of time in the history of the Church. There are no signs by which one can say that it will occur in 'this generation.' While the establishment of Israel in 1948 may suggest that the rapture is near, it is not, contrary to popular belief, a sign which indicates that the rapture will absolutely occur in a given time frame.
The rapture is Biblical and will occur according to God's timing. In this dispensation, God is calling out a unique group of people called 'Church' who are by means of the baptism of the Holy Sprit placed into union with Christ and is called both the 'body of Christ', and the 'bride of Christ'. When God has determined that the 'body of Christ' is complete, the Church will be taken off the earth, and then at some point, perhaps even a few years later, the Tribulation will begin with the signing of a covenant with Israel made by the man of lawlessness who in Daniel 9:26-27 is referred to as the prince who is to come. The man of lawlessness cannot appear until the church has been removed from the earth.
Your entire premise upon which you base your dismissal of the rapture, including the failed predictions of date setters, is wrong.
Let's hear some other opinions. You're contradicting every prophecy guru I followed during the 70's-2008. That's nearly a generation right there.
All of the ones I followed, including the Grand Poobah himself, Lindsey stated implicitly that everything from the rapture to the battle at Armageddon had to finish within the generation that saw the establishment of Israel as a nation per Matthew 24:32-34. This is not my conjecture; it comes from every major writer from Lindsey to vanImpe, through, Grant Jeffries, Tim LaHayne, Dwight Pentecost, Pat Robertson, JR Church, Mal Couch, Salem Kirban, John Feinberg---the list runs to over 100 authors--many of them respected Biblical and theological scholars at major seminaries, who at one time all taught a countdown of the last generation based upon Matthew 24:32-34 beginning with the establishment of Israel in 1948 and then 1967 when that didn't pan out.
Your beef is not with me; it's with a list of scholars you couldn't begin to try to teach Bible prophecy to, Mike.
I have a question about a generation being forty years. How old were the people before they started wandering for forty years? Wouldn't you have to take their average age into consideration before declaring a generation is 40 Years? They didn't begin by crawling. If the average age was 20 or 30, wouldn't you have to tack it onto 40?
Nobody disputes that a Biblical generation is 40 years. That was clearly established in Exodus when the Israelites wandered in the desert 40 years "till that present generation died off".
The generation that saw the establishment of Israel in 1948 ended in 1988. If one really wants to push the envelope they can say, without much scriptural foundation, mind you, that the countdown started in 1967 with the capture of Jerusalem. [/b]
There is a country named Israel, full of Hebrew people. But most of the Hebrew people that reside there, are of the line of Judah.
For Israel, to be united, there are eleven other tribes yet to be recognized in the mix.
Let's hear some other opinions. You're contradicting every prophecy guru I followed during the 70's-2008. That's nearly a generation right there.
All of the ones I followed, including the Grand Poobah himself, Lindsey stated implicitly that everything from the rapture to the battle at Armageddon had to finish within the generation that saw the establishment of Israel as a nation per Matthew 24:32-34. This is not my conjecture; it comes from every major writer from Lindsey to vanImpe, through, Grant Jeffries, Tim LaHayne, Dwight Pentecost, Pat Robertson, JR Church, Mal Couch, Salem Kirban, John Feinberg---the list runs to over 100 authors--many of them respected Biblical and theological scholars at major seminaries, who at one time all taught a countdown of the last generation based upon Matthew 24:32-34 beginning with the establishment of Israel in 1948 and then 1967 when that didn't pan out.
Your beef is not with me; it's with a list of scholars you couldn't begin to try to teach Bible prophecy to, Mike.
The 'beef' as you call it is yours. Not mine. I simply provided the facts pertaining to the rapture. Basing your dismissal of the rapture on the failed predictions of date setters is not justified.
By the way, since you mentioned J. Dwight Pentecost, and claim that he taught a countdown of the last generation based upon Matthew 24:32-34 beginning with the establishment of Israel in 1948 and then 1967, here is what he actually writes;
Since the church is given the hope of an imminent return of Christ there can be no signs given to her as to when this event will take place. Therefore we pass by the subject of ''the signs of the times'' in reference to the closing days for the church. [Things to Come, J. Dwight Pentecost, published in 1958; chap IV., section C, The close of the present age, p.155]
This is what I said in post #2.
Last edited by Michael Way; 10-04-2013 at 02:13 PM..
I have a question about a generation being forty years. How old were the people before they started wandering for forty years? Wouldn't you have to take their average age into consideration before declaring a generation is 40 Years? They didn't begin by crawling. If the average age was 20 or 30, wouldn't you have to tack it onto 40?
Yeshua Bless You
God told all the Israelites 20 years and older that they would die in the desert. The youngest person in that group would have to have been 60 when he died. Everybody 19 years +364 days and under got to enter Canaan. God had to supernaturally see to it that all 20 and older were dead by the time 40 years had passed, except for Joshua and the other guy. A mother a daughter and her daughter comprises three generations, or an average of 75 years, assuming each married at 24 and had a child a year later.
Why do we delight in over complicating things? A man lived in this world, NEVER PREACHED ABOUT RAPTURE, but always preached about the coming of the kingdom of God. He never told us that we would fly up to meet him, so why should the message be different from his followers?
Caught up to, is not rapture by any stretch. You can be caught up to God in your dreams. You are caught up to God, when he lives in you, and you practice his injunctions. The child that was born in Rev 12: 1-5, was also caught up to God, and his destiny is to rule the world. That is Christ in his 2nd advent. He will be born, like his brethren, because in all things he must be like us, not like an angel, because rulership had never been given to angels.
On Matthew 24, Christ said so many things that have already happened.
Let me run through them
a) destruction of Jerusalem - 37 years after his departure
b) wars - many more wars fought with more dangerous arsenal
C) temple brought down - Roman war
D) abomination of desolation - Roman soldiers descrating the holiest of holies
Thrillo,
A physical generation may be 40 years, but a spiritual generation is @ 2000 years. This normally corresponds to a new age.
The 'beef' as you call it is yours. Not mine. I simply provided the facts pertaining to the rapture. Basing your dismissal of the rapture on the failed predictions of date setters is not justified.
As I said I am merely parroting what all these prominent writers have written. When you contradict me you contradict them. If you want to call them liars indirectly by calling me a liar directly (liar is a strong word but that's essentially what you're doing; I take no offense) then do so.
Logically, the rapture cannot stand apart from the tribulation. That's what pretribulation rapture means. It means the rapture immediately precedes the start of the tribulation; it effectively kicks off the tribulation when "He that lets is let"---the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth immediately at the rapture and satan is let loose to begin his mayhem. It doesn't mean the rapture could occur in 70 AD and the tribulation 2000 years later, yet that's what you're implying---that the rapture could have occurred at any point between Pentecost and today. It's a nice theory and it gets the failed generation issue off the hook. But you're attempting to separate the rapture from the tribulation simply because the generation in which all the end time events should have occurred never did. I could just as easily say that all the prophecies in Matthew 23-24 failed because Jesus implicitly stated that all the signs accompanying His return after the fig tree put forth leaves (Israel regathered in its land after the Diaspora) didn't come to pass. Or are you saying that "This generation shall not pass till ALL these things be fulfilled" has absolutely nothing to do with/no connection with the antichrist, the 7-year tribulation, the 7-year peace treaty between Israel and antichrist, the building of the Temple, and antichrist setting up his image in the temple to be worshipped, the seals, the trumpets, and the bowl judgments and the battle at Armageddon? What exactly does "ALL these things be fulfilled" mean?
As I said I am merely parroting what all these prominent writers have written. When you contradict me you contradict them. If you want to call them liars indirectly by calling me a liar directly (liar is a strong word but that's essentially what you're doing; I take no offense) then do so.
I just added this to post #6, and will repeat it here.
By the way, since you mentioned J. Dwight Pentecost, and claim that he taught a countdown of the last generation based upon Matthew 24:32-34 beginning with the establishment of Israel in 1948 and then 1967, here is what he actually writes;
Since the church is given the hope of an imminent return of Christ there can be no signs given to her as to when this event will take place. Therefore we pass by the subject of ''the signs of the times'' in reference to the closing days for the church. [Things to Come, J. Dwight Pentecost, published in 1958; chap IV., section C, The close of the present age, p.155]
This is what I said in post #2.
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Logically, the rapture cannot stand apart from the tribulation. That's what pretribulation rapture means. It means the rapture immediately precedes the start of the tribulation; it effectively kicks off the tribulation when "He that lets is let"---the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth immediately at the rapture and satan is let loose to begin his mayhem. It doesn't mean the rapture could occur in 70 AD and the tribulation 2000 years later, yet that's what you're implying---that the rapture could have occurred at any point between Pentecost and today. It's a nice theory and it gets the failed generation issue off the hook. But you're attempting to separate the rapture from the tribulation simply because the generation in which all the end time events should have occurred never did. I could just as easily say that all the prophecies in Matthew 23-24 failed because Jesus implicitly stated that all the signs accompanying His return after the fig tree put forth leaves (Israel regathered in its land after the Diaspora) didn't come to pass. Or are you saying that "This generation shall not pass till ALL these things be fulfilled" has absolutely nothing to do with/no connection with the antichrist, the 7-year tribulation, the 7-year peace treaty between Israel and antichrist, the building of the Temple, and antichrist setting up his image in the temple to be worshipped, the seals, the trumpets, and the bowl judgments and the battle at Armageddon? What exactly does "ALL these things be fulfilled" mean?
No it does not mean that the rapture has to immediately precede the beginning of the Tribulation. The event which begins the Tribulation is the signing of a peace treaty with Israel by the prince who is to come as mentioned in Daniel 9:26-27. The signing of the peace treaty or covenant with the many begins Daniel's 70th week. This could take place years after the church has been raptured. Once the rapture occurs, the man of lawlessness can appear. That does not mean that he immediately makes a covenant with Israel. In fact, he will probably rise to power as a result of restoring order in the world after the mess that will probably occur as a result of the rapture. This will take time.
The rapture could have occurred at any point in the history of the Church, and then the Tribulation could have occurred at some point after that after whatever amount of time was necessary to set up for the Tribulation. Historically it didn't happen that way, but it could have.
And the fig tree in Matthew 24:32 is not a reference to Israel. That is simply a common assumption which is not true. Jesus used the example of the fig tree to show that just as when its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that Summer is near, so also, when the signs which occur during the Tribulation appear, it will be known that Christ's return is near. Again, everything in Matthew chapters 24 and 25 occurs in the Tribulation which occurs at some point, but not necessarily immediately after the church has been removed from the earth.
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