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Well, okay, Mike you made your point. And I'm sure your intention wasn't to change anyone's minds in here, because you won't. 99% of Christians including myself were taught from the time we could walk that the rapture immediately precedes the tribulation. That's what we were taught and what we believed. That's what every major author on prophecy teaches. And sadly you are just a lone voice in the wilderness with the idea that Jesus was not speaking about the rapture when He said, "But of that day and hour knows no man" That's the first defense a pro-rapture Christian will put up and it is tied to Jesus talking about the fig tree putting forth leaves, meaning the founding of Israel in 1948 and how that generation would not pass until ALL THINGS, and if the rapture precedes the tribulation, then ALL THINGS obviously includes the rapture--until ALL THINGS ARE FULFILLED.
And since that generation has already passed either Jesus was a failed prophet or He wasn't referring to anything happening beyond 70 AD. Again, there will be no rapture, because the generation in which it should have happened---1948-2008 has come and gone.
You are also taught the Spirit indwells the believer, but romans 8:9 says that isn't true for most "believers".
And that generation you lable couldn't be the generation discussed here. Only one of 12 tribes is united. The fig tree isn't even together yet.
You are also taught the Spirit indwells the believer, but romans 8:9 says that isn't true for most "believers".
And that generation you lable couldn't be the generation discussed here. Only one of 12 tribes is united. The fig tree isn't even together yet.
Excellent, excellent point, XC. The full house of Israel hasn't even been gathered back into the land yet. And likely it never will, given that the lost 11 tribes have vanished into history never to be found again. And if all 12 tribes cannot be brought back into the land, then Jesus' words were never meant to have any future application beyond 70 AD. That means the Book of Daniel and 9:24-27 has absolutely NOTHING to do with the antichrist and the 7-year tribulation (70th week). That is something you will NEVER hear a Bible prophecy author own up to.
Excellent point. But try convincing anyone in the Dispensationalist pre-tribulation camp that is fact.
I've laid it all out in my OP. The generation that was supposed to see the rapture and return of Jesus is over...FINISHED. It ended in 2008, 70 years after the founding of Israel in 1948. Those who are still pinning their hopes on a rapture to wisk them into the sky and away from their troubles are wishful thinkers. It's never going to happen.
Excellent point. But try convincing anyone in the Dispensationalist pre-tribulation camp that is fact.
I've laid it all out in my OP. The generation that was supposed to see the rapture and return of Jesus is over...FINISHED. It ended in 2008, 70 years after the founding of Israel in 1948. Those who are still pinning their hopes on a rapture to wisk them into the sky and away from their troubles are wishful thinkers. It's never going to happen.
They'll just reinterpret the 'prophecies', move the goals posts, and fudge the 'numbers' in a different way.
Excellent, excellent point, XC. The full house of Israel hasn't even been gathered back into the land yet. And likely it never will, given that the lost 11 tribes have vanished into history never to be found again. And if all 12 tribes cannot be brought back into the land, then Jesus' words were never meant to have any future application beyond 70 AD. That means the Book of Daniel and 9:24-27 has absolutely NOTHING to do with the antichrist and the 7-year tribulation (70th week). That is something you will NEVER hear a Bible prophecy author own up to.
THE PRETERISTS HAVE WON!!!!!!!!!
You can make an outstandingly solid argument that 70AD was that apocalypse, that the thousand years after that, more or less, was the most solid years of the Church, and then all the "unprocessed bull fertilizer" started cropping up. Thus the end of the thousand year reign.
The Church is Christ's body. People taking apocalyptic literature that is written steeped in allegory and imagery as if it was literal, OR EVEN DIRECT, just screws up some beautifully written thoughts. Last I checked, no one would know the day nor the time.
And prophecy wasn't to tell the future, but to identify the present.
People just want to get all involved in who is right. That's a fad since the reformation. Protestants, (*I R 1) have turned the faith into what you know, not how you live, then make fun of ROME with some really cracker and cheeseball theology over them teaching that WORKS are relevant and expected of the saved ones. That's why Protestantism has 8.5 denominations per member in the Church.
That's also the factions, divisions, splits, arguing that Paul addressed as fruits of the flesh in Gal 5:19-21. BUT everyone who wants to pretend they are right will dance and sing, and bend and warp and do whatever NEEDS BE DONE to say "WHAT I KNOW IS RIGHT!" After all I have the Holy spirit, so I KNOW IT IS RIGHT. If you don't agree, well you don't have the spirit so you are wrong.
Do any of you realize how utterly stupid that is? No one will admit that is them, but dang near every Xian in every church lives that line; admitting to it is just a formality.
What revelations prophecied is irrelevant. IT DOES NOT MATTER. Flying chariots, helicopters or aliens wondering where the pyramids went, it's all a distraction. ONE MORE THING to create division between the churches.
The ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY thing that matters is how you live. That you live as best you can in the way he directed, and that you put what you know aside, and learn what HE wants to SHOW YOU, not preach at you. CHANGE HAPPENS HANDS ON. You can't read a book and get pregnant. You have TO DO THE EXERCISE. If any of you doubt me, send me a DM I'll explain it there. I'll need to have a photo ID first though.
You can make an outstandingly solid argument that 70AD was that apocalypse, that the thousand years after that, more or less, was the most solid years of the Church, and then all the "unprocessed bull fertilizer" started cropping up. Thus the end of the thousand year reign.
The Church is Christ's body. People taking apocalyptic literature that is written steeped in allegory and imagery as if it was literal, OR EVEN DIRECT, just screws up some beautifully written thoughts. Last I checked, no one would know the day nor the time.
And prophecy wasn't to tell the future, but to identify the present.
People just want to get all involved in who is right. That's a fad since the reformation. Protestants, (*I R 1) have turned the faith into what you know, not how you live, then make fun of ROME with some really cracker and cheeseball theology over them teaching that WORKS are relevant and expected of the saved ones. That's why Protestantism has 8.5 denominations per member in the Church.
That's also the factions, divisions, splits, arguing that Paul addressed as fruits of the flesh in Gal 5:19-21. BUT everyone who wants to pretend they are right will dance and sing, and bend and warp and do whatever NEEDS BE DONE to say "WHAT I KNOW IS RIGHT!" After all I have the Holy spirit, so I KNOW IT IS RIGHT. If you don't agree, well you don't have the spirit so you are wrong.
Do any of you realize how utterly stupid that is? No one will admit that is them, but dang near every Xian in every church lives that line; admitting to it is just a formality.
What revelations prophecied is irrelevant. IT DOES NOT MATTER. Flying chariots, helicopters or aliens wondering where the pyramids went, it's all a distraction. ONE MORE THING to create division between the churches.
The ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY thing that matters is how you live. That you live as best you can in the way he directed, and that you put what you know aside, and learn what HE wants to SHOW YOU, not preach at you. CHANGE HAPPENS HANDS ON. You can't read a book and get pregnant. You have TO DO THE EXERCISE. If any of you doubt me, send me a DM I'll explain it there. I'll need to have a photo ID first though.
People buy into bible prophecy for a couple of reason:
1. they're gullible, especially new Christians. They get exposed to all this supernatural stuff and think it's exciting and "sexy". Face it, what's more interesting, sitting at home on the worn-out sofa watching Jimmy Swaggert lie about his latest sexcapades on repeats of his Sunday morning sermon, or taking a trip to the Caribbean on a cruise?
Same thing. The veracity of what prophecy authors are saying has nothing to do with it. Brass candlesticks that spit flame is much more exciting that ordinary brass candlesticks. Attaching personalities to them, like they are resurrected prophets Moses and Elijiah or Enoch is more exciting still. There in a nutshell you have the reason bible prophecy is so wildly popular. It spices up the lives of people who otherwise would be bored out of their minds.
99% of Christians including myself were taught from the time we could walk that the rapture immediately precedes the tribulation[/b]. That's what we were taught and what we believed.
Thrillobyte, it is untrue that 99% of Christians are taught the rapture precedes the tribulation. The largest Christian religions are amillenialist.
Thrillobyte, it is untrue that 99% of Christians are taught the rapture precedes the tribulation. The largest Christian religions are amillenialist.
Full or partial?
I'm convinced that at least a large majority of Christians, at least the gullible ones that lap this stuff up all day long are pre-tribulationists because that's what 99% of the prophecy gurus out there teach, like Lindsey, the laLonde Bros. Jack va Impe, Grant Jefferies, Tim LaHayne, and co. again for the simple reason that it is the point of view that sells the most books, tapes, DVD's etc and makes the most money for the authors and their publishers. It's just the "I-want-it-now" philosophy of the X-Y-Z generations in Christian packaging.
Full or partial. Well, me, I'm a full. I don't believe the Bible teaches that Jesus is returning physically at a future date to set up a millennium kingdom and rule from Israel. Again, this scenario is just pure hokum concocted by writers over the centuries to drum up sales of books (Scofield was one the biggest culprits in promoting all this nonsense for the sole purpose of selling his Scofield Bible). Preterist means that the person believes ALL PROPHECY was fulfilled by 70 AD. Any close reading of Matthew 13-14 and Revelation will tell you that Jesus and John were saying THIS generation--the one Peter, Paul and John were in, were the ones that would see all these thing comes to past. Revelation: "for the time is near; it is at hand; it is at the door".
Partials like RC Sproul hedge their bets and reserve Jesus' coming at a future date, but if they were truly honest with their audiences and weren't worried about offending them and losing monetary support, they'd level with them and admit they don't really believe Jesus is returning the way it has been painted in "Left Behind" and countless other prophecy books (which I have read and know the scenario backwards and forwards). It all reads like a big Hollywood blockbuster, and it's supposed to because that's what Christians pay billions of dollars for---to escape into this dream world, this fantasy of Jesus riding on white horses back to earth to establish a kingdom where our evil neighbor is raptured into hellfire and Jesus sets up a Socialist world government where people suffering from cancer don't have worry about their healthcare premium getting paid. It's all pure escapist fantasy.
I've read the heartbreaking stories on Rapture in the Air forum and others, people desperate for the rapture to come because their lives are living hells. "When is Jesus going to come??? I want to get out of here and go to heaven to be with the Lord!!" It's just....heartbreaking.
I would say the rapture teaching is one of the greatest evils ever to descend upon the Christian body. It has given every generation from Christ onward---over 2000 years---false hope that He was returning, and billions of Christians since Christ have died heartbroken, impoverished, and disillusioned and have lost their faith because of it.
I'm convinced that at least a large majority of Christians, at least the
gullible ones that lap this stuff up all day long are pre-tribulationists
because that's what 99% of the prophecy gurus out there teach, like Lindsey, the
laLonde Bros. Jack va Impe, Grant Jefferies, Tim LaHayne, and co. again for the
simple reason that it is the point of view that sells the most books, tapes,
DVD's etc and makes the most money for the authors and their publishers. It's
just the "I-want-it-now" philosophy of the X-Y-Z generations in Christian
packaging.
Thrillobyte, the majority of Christians are taught amillenianism and live in countries where none of the people you've mentioned are even known to exist.
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