Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Not every Catholic Church is "Roman", though they are all in Communion with the Pope in Rome.
For example, there is the Maronite Church and all of the other Eastern churches. They have their own non-Roman liturgies and their own non-Roman hierarchy, but they are all Catholic.
see my post in the other thread mike as we seem to be having this same discussion on two threads.
Jesus Christ, the Bible, and the Church (composed of men) are not mutually exclusive. Since Jesus Christ ascended into heaven, who do you think He works through??
The Holy Spirit (aka the Comforter) and directly within our consciousness by invoking agape love in us to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." (Of course, I am persuaded because I encountered Him). If we are honest with ourselves, a lot of division, discord, disagreement, etc. with Religious dogma and authority actually emanates from that inner source IF we are receptive to it. It requires an effort of will under the impetus of fear to override that inner knowing to accept some of the outrageous nonsense presented as from God, IMO.
Quote:
Every individual believer does not necessarily have the Holy Spirit in the sense you are meaning. The Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles at Pentecost in a special way - to guide them in all Truth. The Apostles passed that gift on to their Successors until the present day.
Utter exclusivist nonsense born of human vanity and hubris. Christ became available to us ALL at Pentecost. It is our individual receptivity and understanding that accounts for the differences in our expression of it, not some magical power passed on through human ritual.
Quote:
We, as individual believers, are not guaranteed protection from error by the Holy Spirit. That should be obvious enough by the empirical fact that genuine believers disagree on many important theological topics.
Yes we are. Any failure is explained by the states of mind applied by those rendering theological interpretations. Those who are in states of mind that are the OPPOSITE of the Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness err on the side of a wrathful and vengeful God. Those who are in the states of mind compatible with the Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness (far too few it seems) render very different interpretations. Those of any intermediate states of mind result in the rest of the diversity.
Quote:
I don't believe in your caricature of the Old Testament God. I disagree with your portrayal of Him. I see no contradiction in Scripture between the Old Testament God and Jesus. Remember this thread?
Well, your tolerance for barbarity, primitive ignorance, spiritual immaturity, and superstition exceeds mine by multiple factors of ten. Any God who would create an eternal Hell of ANY kind for ANY reason is no God in my estimation. Apparently, the force of wrath and vengeance is powerful in humanity.
and as I showed via that link it does not. 2C0.5:11 is about reverence, not terror.
Read post #185 again in that thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Did your earthly father punish you in order to correct you?
Mike do you believe God is love?
And if so did you know that there is no fear in love?
Did you know that perfect love (which would be the love of God) casteth out fear?
Did you know those who fear are those who are in torment?
Did you know that if you feareth you have not been made perfect in Love?
My brother only those who fear God teach of an eternally tormenting God, open wide thy arms to the overpowering love of God and it will cast aside all fear and torment and the teaching of such.
1JN.4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Perfect love casts out every kind of fear except the fear of God.
Otherwise we would not be exhorted to fear the LORD in such passages as Luke 12:4-5 and 1 Peter 1:17.
Also, those who do not have the fear of the LORD are simply not wise (Job 28:28).
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Jesus Christ, the Bible, and the Church (composed of men) are not mutually exclusive. Since Jesus Christ ascended into heaven, who do you think He works through??
Every individual believer does not necessarily have the Holy Spirit in the sense you are meaning. The Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles at Pentecost in a special way - to guide them in all Truth. The Apostles passed that gift on to their Successors until the present day.
We, as individual believers, are not guaranteed protection from error by the Holy Spirit. That should be obvious enough by the empirical fact that genuine believers disagree on many important theological topics.
I don't believe in your caricature of the Old Testament God. I disagree with your portrayal of Him. I see no contradiction in Scripture between the Old Testament God and Jesus. Remember this thread?
The Holy Spirit is in fact promised to all those who believe (Galatians 3:14, Ephesians 1:13-14).
And the promises of John 14:26, 16:13 is given to all those to whom the Holy Spirit is given.
Why then are there differences of opinion between church members who are supposed to have the Holy Spirit?
Sometimes the flesh gets involved in our formulation of doctrine (Galatians 5:19-21), producing heresy.
And, there is also the influence of demons (1 Timothy 4:1). Not every Christian is influenced by the Holy Spirit 100% of the time when he is formulating the doctrine of his mind.
This includes the Pope and bishops who wrote the catechism of the Catholic Church.
Even the Pope has to say something ex cathedra in order for it to be considered infallible.
Because if Peter was the first Pope, it should be clear that he was in the wrong at a certain instance (Galatians 2:11).
And of course if any Pope were to ever say anything ex cathedra that is contrary to holy scripture, we would have to wonder if that particular Pope is the coming Antichrist.
I have already shown you those scripture are in reference to reverence/respect.
You simply serve God and teach other to serve God out of fear instead of out of reverence/respect.
So I will ask you the same question I asked the others.
Why do you fear God if you are covered by his blood and your sin cast into the lake of forgetfulness?
There are many fears associated with the Lord. Of course there is the awe of the Lord and fear of respect.
I very much look forward to the return of the Lord, but I also have a certain fear. Have I been that "good and faithful servant, have I studied to show myself approved, have I done the things that have pleased Him?"
This fear of meeting Him while it is wonderful also has its trembling.
There are many fears associated with the Lord. Of course there is the awe of the Lord and fear of respect.
I very much look forward to the return of the Lord, but I also have a certain fear. Have I been that "good and faithful servant, have I studied to show myself approved, have I done the things that have pleased Him?"
This fear of meeting Him while it is wonderful also has its trembling.
The timid or fearful have their place in the Lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 is not referring to the fear of the LORD.
I was referring to your ridiculous notion that the timid or fearful will be damned.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
