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That is the focal point .. the sun ... which no natural person can live on .......and no natural person can look at and see .... you will be blinded
That point in time is the 4th Day ....spoken of from the beginning
Gen 1:14**And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15**And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16**And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17**And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18**And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19**And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
There is a revolving around that ‘4th Day’
Everything builds up .... and falls away from that ‘point’
How does that make Jeremiah apply to our hearts, Meerkat. He told our ancestors they could NOT trust their hearts, which was true. But after Jesus and the New Covenant, God has "written in our hearts" and we have the Comforter to guide us to the truth resident there.
Forgive a brief digression back to the the original topic:
To the question of whether 100% of everything is God's will, I haven't yet heard a declarative and unequivocal "no". Does anyone think that some things really do happen that were not meant to happen?
Teleology is a strong theme in Christian faith - the idea that history is moving inexorably toward a certain end point or goal. If we grant that much, I think we will agree that events in the historical timeline that lead toward that goal are God's will.
If someone believes that some events violate God's will, I hope they would explain how history will arrive at its predetermined goal if it is full of events that do not lead in that direction.
I'm thinking it's not God's will that man rebel against Him, but yet that is a growing rebellion.
God in His foreknowledge knew what man would do and gave the authors the knowledge to pen exactly what man would do and how He would handle it.
So is 100% of God's will taking place? Absolutely not! None of the sin on this earth is God's will!
But if you look at it from the viewpoint of God knowing what man would do with his freewill, then yes, everything is going 100% at His will regardless of mans efforts to rebel.
Forgive a brief digression back to the the original topic:
To the question of whether 100% of everything is God's will, I haven't yet heard a declarative and unequivocal "no". Does anyone think that some things really do happen that were not meant to happen?
Teleology is a strong theme in Christian faith - the idea that history is moving inexorably toward a certain end point or goal. If we grant that much, I think we will agree that events in the historical timeline that lead toward that goal are God's will.
If someone believes that some events violate God's will, I hope they would explain how history will arrive at its predetermined goal if it is full of events that do not lead in that direction.
It is an eminently debatable philosophical question whether or not EVERYTHING in a system necessarily impacts the final outcome.
Forgive a brief digression back to the the original topic:
To the question of whether 100% of everything is God's will, I haven't yet heard a declarative and unequivocal "no". Does anyone think that some things really do happen that were not meant to happen?
I think the reason you haven't heard an declarative and unequivocal "no" is that it kind of depends on how the question is interpreted. For instance, I would agree with you that everything that happens serves a purpose in God's Plan, and in that regard, even the bad things are "meant to happen." On the other hand, I don't think the sometimes horrible things that we human beings do to each other are "God's will." He took no pleasure in the Holocaust, for instance, and takes no pleasure in the cruelty that exists all around us today. He doesn't want us to suffer and it's not His will that we inflict suffering on one another. He does, however, know that trials and difficulties are necessary for our growth and progress. If we never had to experience anything negative (including but not limited to disease, natural disasters, etc.), His Plan for us could not be fulfilled.
And thanks for the digression back to the original topic.
How does that make Jeremiah apply to our hearts, Meerkat. He told our ancestors they could NOT trust their hearts, which was true. But after Jesus and the New Covenant, God has "written in our hearts" and we have the Comforter to guide us to the truth resident there.
Not everything that is written is to us individually/personally, it is written to the assembly, who are gathered together at various times/places ..... but everything is filtered through individual people ... into/and out
Paul was like a conduit from the OT to the coming NT assemblies, but those assemblies were to be distributed throughout the world... via the church “system”
I think the reason you haven't heard an declarative and unequivocal "no" is that it kind of depends on how the question is interpreted. For instance, I would agree with you that everything that happens serves a purpose in God's Plan, and in that regard, even the bad things are "meant to happen." On the other hand, I don't think the sometimes horrible things that we human beings do to each other are "God's will." He took no pleasure in the Holocaust, for instance, and takes no pleasure in the cruelty that exists all around us today. He doesn't want us to suffer and it's not His will that we inflict suffering on one another. He does, however, know that trials and difficulties are necessary for our growth and progress. If we never had to experience anything negative (including but not limited to disease, natural disasters, etc.), His Plan for us could not be fulfilled.
And thanks for the digression back to the original topic.
... with the exception that things are meant to happen, rather, they are inevitable given man's nature.
But you touched on that, wherein he takes no pleasure in the wicked and evil things that take place.
I think the reason you haven't heard an declarative and unequivocal "no" is that it kind of depends on how the question is interpreted. For instance, I would agree with you that everything that happens serves a purpose in God's Plan, and in that regard, even the bad things are "meant to happen." On the other hand, I don't think the sometimes horrible things that we human beings do to each other are "God's will." He took no pleasure in the Holocaust, for instance, and takes no pleasure in the cruelty that exists all around us today. He doesn't want us to suffer and it's not His will that we inflict suffering on one another. He does, however, know that trials and difficulties are necessary for our growth and progress. If we never had to experience anything negative (including but not limited to disease, natural disasters, etc.), His Plan for us could not be fulfilled.
And thanks for the digression back to the original topic.
Yes, it is hard to entertain the idea that God wants abject suffering to happen. At the same time, I have to agree with you that abject suffering must "serve a purpose in God's Plan". If it didn't, it wouldn't happen. So I can see the reason for wanting to draw a distinction between "meant to happen" and God's will. The God of our understanding could not possibly be a sadist, as you rightly pointed out, so if such things are meant to be, it is not because they are pleasurable to God. God must want them to happen for other, deeper reasons.
Yet the suffering remains God's will, doesn't it? What qualitative difference is there between 1) "God means for it to happen" and 2) "God wills it to happen"?
I think the reason you haven't heard an declarative and unequivocal "no" is that it kind of depends on how the question is interpreted. For instance, I would agree with you that everything that happens serves a purpose in God's Plan, and in that regard, even the bad things are "meant to happen." On the other hand, I don't think the sometimes horrible things that we human beings do to each other are "God's will." He took no pleasure in the Holocaust, for instance, and takes no pleasure in the cruelty that exists all around us today. He doesn't want us to suffer and it's not His will that we inflict suffering on one another. He does, however, know that trials and difficulties are necessary for our growth and progress. If we never had to experience anything negative (including but not limited to disease, natural disasters, etc.), His Plan for us could not be fulfilled.
And thanks for the digression back to the original topic.
Yep!
This is related to Gods thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and his ways above our ways ..... but He stoops down to help us in our “infirmity” “mortality” as He is our creator
I'm thinking it's not God's will that man rebel against Him, but yet that is a growing rebellion.
God in His foreknowledge knew what man would do and gave the authors the knowledge to pen exactly what man would do and how He would handle it.
So is 100% of God's will taking place? Absolutely not! None of the sin on this earth is God's will!
But if you look at it from the viewpoint of God knowing what man would do with his freewill, then yes, everything is going 100% at His will regardless of mans efforts to rebel.
But Charlie, all you have done here is to restate the dilemma without trying to resolve it.
"God in his foreknowledge knew what man would do . . .", you said, and you are right - because He could not fail to know. He is God the Maker of Earth and the Architect of History. He knew before putting Earth into production all that would happen in it - because He designed it.
In a world that unfolds exactly to God's specifications, you ask us to accept that what happens there is not God's will?
It is an eminently debatable philosophical question whether or not EVERYTHING in a system necessarily impacts the final outcome.
Now that is a very interesting thought that I have not heard. To be part of a system means to interact with other parts of the system. Can something be called part of a system if it does not interact with that system?
I can think of other objections to my teleological scenario - but they involved quantum randomness, and I'm on very shaky ground there.
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