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Thank you. The objection I have is to your view that it is part of God's Will that it happened. It was God's Sovereign Will to cede to us Dominion over the earth and all that happens here but He also gave us free will to do so. It has nothing to do with His power to stop us. It has to do with His granting us the free will and Dominion to handle our own affairs. He certainly did NOT Will the Holocaust or any other negative or evil thing we have done, including the scourging and crucifixion of His Son! He simply does not TAKE BACK what He has granted to us -- Dominion and free will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I really didn't say why the Holocaust happened. I said it was above my pay grade to judge that.
On the other hand, your view seems to be that evil has no purpose. That God could stop it, but doesn't care to. Why would anyone want to worship a god that is that disconnected from the world?
That is NOT my view. God is NOT disconnected. He has ceded Dominion and free will to us here on earth by His Sovereign Will and will not take it back. WE are to work it all out here, but the Comforter (His Holy Spirit) abides with us to guide us if we will listen to what God has "written in our hearts" with agape love.
So God created people and gave them free will, knowing "he" created them to do the stuff he doesn't want them to do, (which "he" already knows they will do, because "he" is all-knowing), therefore damning themselves to go to hell, while "he" sits backs and watches.
And all the heathens who have never heard of Christianity will go to hell as well, because it's their fault they don't know about "him"! Talk about being set up for failure!
But on the other hand, no matter what terrible atrocities people commit, all is forgiven if they repent and bow down to "him". Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, doesn't matter, they are currently in heaven if they repented. And so are all the the people who committed atrocities in the name of God/religion and violently forced non-Christians to convert, they are a-okay and in heaven.
I can't see how one would worship a god that is powerless to stop something like that. If you believe God was incapable of stopping it, what kind of a god is that?
Do you believe God was incapable of keeping Nebuchadnezzar from laying siege on Jerusalem? And all the horrors that went along with that? Daniel thought so. It says it right in the first chapter of Daniel. God raised up Nebuchadnezzar in judgment of Israel. And he prays a prayer of repentance in Daniel 9.
The question that we should ask is "Why did God allow it? Why did God allow them to be conquered by Nebuchadnezzar?
Or why did God allow them to be enslaved by Egypt?
Scripture tells us the reason they went into Exile to Babylon. It's their sin Scripture also tells us the reason for their enslavement in Egypt. You may not like it, but it's there to read.
Genesis 15:13-16 "Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. 14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
God allowed them to be enslaved in Egypt so he could incubate them and grow them from 70 people to several million, as well as allow the Amorites to add to their sin. He then judged Egypt and the Amorites for their sin.
God allowed them to be taken into captivity in Babylon because of Israel's collective sin and repeated violation of the Mosaic Law.
So we see that sometimes God allows bad things to happen to judge the person it happens to, other times it's to judge someone else for their sin.
God allowed the Holocaust to happen for a reason. It's above my pay grade to speculate any reason why God allowed it. Maybe he is/was judging Germany, or maybe Israel. I honestly can't say and I will not suggest that anyone deserves what happened any more than anyone else.
So you posted all that to get to "God works in mysterious ways"....
Fact of the matter is that free will for man vs. "God's plan" cannot be squared on a moment by moment/thought by thought/action by action basis. I suppose it could be God's plan part of the time and free will part of the time but if you believe in the "butterfly effect" it is still tough to square.
This whole question fits into that "Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it" category of conundrums.
So God created people and gave them free will, knowing "he" created them to do the stuff he doesn't want them to do, (which "he" already knows they will do, because "he" is all-knowing), therefore damning themselves to go to hell, while "he" sits backs and watches.
And all the heathens who have never heard of Christianity will go to hell as well, because it's their fault they don't know about "him"! Talk about being set up for failure!
But on the other hand, no matter what terrible atrocities people commit, all is forgiven if they repent and bow down to "him". Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, doesn't matter, they are currently in heaven if they repented. And so are all the people who committed atrocities in the name of God/religion and violently forced non-Christians to convert, they are a-okay and in heaven.
This fiction is the result of ignorance. No one "gets away with anything!" What happens here on earth is the prologue. God balances the scales after our physical death for ALL concerned, perpetrators and victims alike. Reaping exactly what we sow involves actually experiencing what we have dished out! Imagine Hitler having to experience the tortures and deaths of the 6 million or more people he is responsible for to correct and renew his evil mind. That could take a while, but nothing is eternal -- except God.
So you posted all that to get to "God works in mysterious ways"....
Fact of the matter is that free will for man vs. "God's plan" cannot be squared on a moment by moment/thought by thought/action by action basis. I suppose it could be God's plan part of the time and free will part of the time but if you believe in the "butterfly effect" it is still tough to square.
This whole question fits into that "Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it" category of conundrums.
So yeah, God works in mysterious ways....
I literally said that God raised up Nebuchadnezzar to judge Israel, as well as he was behind Israel being in Egypt.
He didn't sit back and "work in a mysterious way". He said what he did and why.
This fiction is the result of ignorance. No one "gets away with anything!" What happens here on earth is the prologue. God balances the scales after our physical death for ALL concerned, perpetrators and victims alike. Reaping exactly what we sow involves actually experiencing what we have dished out! Imagine Hitler having to experience the tortures and deaths of the 6 million or more people he is responsible for to correct and renew his evil mind. That could take a while, but nothing is eternal -- except God.
So allow the murder of millions and then punish the perpetrator in the afterlife. How does that help the people who were murdered? And why would someone be enabled to commit atrocities just so s/he can be punished in an afterlife, when God could have prevented the atrocities in the first place because "he" already knew they'd be committed?
Also:
. . . that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” Romans 10:8-13 (NASB)
And:
“‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…’ Then those who gladly received his word were baptized.”Acts 2:38-41.
So allow the murder of millions and then punish the perpetrator in the afterlife. How does that help the people who were murdered? And why would someone be enabled to commit atrocities just so s/he can be punished in an afterlife, when God could have prevented the atrocities in the first place because "he" already knew they'd be committed?
Read more carefully. I said God balances the scales for ALL involved, perpetrators AND victims alike. God's perfect justice does not involve punishment just chastisement and correction proportionate to the misdeeds. But it is also capable of doing what our justice cannot -- restore victims and somehow compensate them.
Read more carefully. I said God balances the scales for ALL involved, perpetrators AND victims alike. God's perfect justice does not involve punishment just chastisement and correction proportionate to the misdeeds. But it is also capable of doing what our justice cannot -- restore victims and somehow compensate them.
It sounds like an elaborate game. People are created to sin, they sin, the creator already knows every move they'll make but yet creates them anyway and allows them to do what they want (because free will), just to punish them and compensate their victims in some way in the afterlife. To what purpose?
So God created people and gave them free will, knowing "he" created them to do the stuff he doesn't want them to do, (which "he" already knows they will do, because "he" is all-knowing)
That is true. We are where we are in this life because the world is what it is, and the world is what it is because He made it that way.
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Originally Posted by CatTX
But on the other hand, no matter what terrible atrocities people commit, all is forgiven if they repent and bow down to "him". Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, doesn't matter, they are currently in heaven if they repented. And so are all the the people who committed atrocities in the name of God/religion and violently forced non-Christians to convert, they are a-okay and in heaven.
That's the great thing about grace. It goes as deep as necessary to rescue us, however far we have fallen. It is inconceivable in the final analysis that grace would fail to rescue Pol Pot, because the world that God planned had Pol Pot in it.
That is true. We are where we are in this life because the world is what it is, and the world is what it is because He made it that way.
That's the great thing about grace. It goes as deep as necessary to rescue us, however far we have fallen. It is inconceivable in the final analysis that grace would fail to rescue Pol Pot, because the world that God planned had Pol Pot in it.
Why create beings you already know are doomed to failure, just to punish them for being what you created. Just does not make any sense to me whatsoever.
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