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Old 10-27-2021, 07:30 AM
 
4,634 posts, read 1,176,699 times
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Romans 9:13


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?

And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. Ps 5:5


5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And they that work iniquity shall soon hear these words Matt 7:23


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Yes, these and those in Ps 5:5 are the very same !

 
Old 10-27-2021, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Alabama
13,618 posts, read 7,932,752 times
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You would have to more clearly define "love" and "hate".

With God, love is an act of His will. It's agape, and may not have anything to do with emotional affection (philia), as we think of "love". When we say "God loves all men", we mean that God desires the best for all men.

I'd recommend reading through Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica on God's Love.

"Nothing prevents one and the same thing being loved under one aspect, while it is hated under another. God loves sinners in so far as they are existing natures; for they have existence and have it from Him. In so far as they are sinners, they have not existence at all, but fall short of it; and this in them is not from God. Hence under this aspect, they are hated by Him."
 
Old 10-27-2021, 08:40 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,230 posts, read 26,440,532 times
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Romans 9:13 is a quotation of Malachi 1:2-3 in which it is the nations which sprang from Jacob and Esau which are being referred to. God chose Jacob and his descendants (Israel) instead of Esau and his descendants (the Edomites) to be the people through whom the Messiah would come into the world. Read Genesis 25:23 where God told Rebekah that two nations were in her womb.

The references to 'love' and 'hate' are not even actual references to those emotions but are simply the writer's way of saying that God chose Jacob over Esau for a specific purpose---that of being the people though whom the Messiah would come into the world.

There is not even any reason to think that Esau wasn't a believer or that he lost his salvation. What he lost was his birthright as the firstborn son when he sold his birthright to Jacob. He later wanted to get back his birthright as the firstborn son but it was not possible.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His unique Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

God's mental attitude of love for the world is based on who and what He is, on His character. Not on who and what we are.
 
Old 10-27-2021, 09:08 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,029,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightfame52 View Post
Romans 9:13


13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?

And I got news for you, He did not only hate Esau, but all the workers of iniquity. Ps 5:5


5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And they that work iniquity shall soon hear these words Matt 7:23


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Yes, these and those in Ps 5:5 are the very same !
You’re not that special, Calvin....
 
Old 10-27-2021, 09:40 AM
 
45,582 posts, read 27,180,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightfame52 View Post

How can it be sincerely taught that scripture teaches that God loves all men without exception, when it specifically says of Esau, God Hated ?
I don't think that specific sentiment is taught -or- we don't fully understand the concept of without exception. It clearly does not imply that every single person can do whatever we want and God will accept us into His presence as though we are pure and clean.

It does mean that God in His love has made access to Himself available to every single person through faith in whom He has sent.

John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
Old 10-27-2021, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Middle America
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Go with Jesus' words and teachings to avoid confusion, not Paul's.
 
Old 10-27-2021, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Alabama
13,618 posts, read 7,932,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Go with Jesus' words and teachings to avoid confusion, not Paul's.
What about Malachi's words?
 
Old 10-27-2021, 12:46 PM
 
18,976 posts, read 7,017,904 times
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Yes. God hates sinners. God does hate. But he loves his people. They are his. No matter what they do, they are his. He will never turn them away.

And because of Jesus, his Covenant has been expanded outside of just Israel. Anyone that believes in Jesus can be born again as a child of God. Anyone. No matter what their sin is. No matter what they've done, or who they are. Anyone.
 
Old 10-27-2021, 12:46 PM
 
299 posts, read 104,097 times
Reputation: 81
Picture one of your children. With her image firmly in your mind, imagine yourself hating her. Can't do it, can you?

I'm not saying it is impossible for you to hate your child. It could happen. But right now, as you sit here in your right mind, it feels inconceivable and beyond all possibility. You brought this person into the world and you are responsible for her in so many ways. There will be times when you are cross with her or even estranged from her. But to hate her would feel like a betrayal of your own nature.

Unless we humans are more loving than God, which we obviously aren't, He cannot imagine Himself hating His children either, whatever the ancients wrote about Him.
 
Old 10-27-2021, 12:48 PM
 
18,976 posts, read 7,017,904 times
Reputation: 3584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
Romans 9:13 is a quotation of Malachi 1:2-3 in which it is the nations which sprang from Jacob and Esau which are being referred to. God chose Jacob and his descendants (Israel) instead of Esau and his descendants (the Edomites) to be the people through whom the Messiah would come into the world. Read Genesis 25:23 where God told Rebekah that two nations were in her womb.

The references to 'love' and 'hate' are not even actual references to those emotions but are simply the writer's way of saying that God chose Jacob over Esau for a specific purpose---that of being the people though whom the Messiah would come into the world.

There is not even any reason to think that Esau wasn't a believer or that he lost his salvation. What he lost was his birthright as the firstborn son when he sold his birthright to Jacob. He later wanted to get back his birthright as the firstborn son but it was not possible.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His unique Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

God's mental attitude of love for the world is based on who and what He is, on His character. Not on who and what we are.
You know that John 3:16 doesn't say that anyone can come to him on their own free will, right? It literally says the believers will believe.

But yes, God saves based on HIS nature, not our's. Keep that up, you'll sound like a Calvinist. It's not up to us to decide salvation, but God.
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