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What is sad is grown adults choosing to believe in the manner of little kids , unable to accept reality because reality conflicts with what their juvenile version of religion teaches them .
Matthew 18:3 “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus
Do you think God would take more pleasure in the disposition of Person A or Person B:
Person A is told by his sincere and well-intentioned religious instructor that God created the world in 6 literal days by speaking it into existence. Person A trusts this instruction and does not make any effort to refute the "scientific accuracy" of it.
Person B is told by his sincere and well-intentioned religious instructor that God created the world in 6 literal days by speaking it into existence. Person B doubts this instruction and conducts "scientific investigation" and experiments in an effort to prove his instructor wrong.
I know this isn't really relevant to the topic at hand, but I see claims like this being made all the time.
What does it mean, exactly?
Since we know that all matter is the same age - it was brought into existence by God in His act of creation - what does it mean that a planet is 4 billion years old?
What happened 4 billion years ago in order to make us "have a planet", where 4 billion years and 1 day ago we didn't have a planet?
Planets don't pop into existence fully formed in a day (or in six days - the Genesis creation story) but form over long periods time by a process known as accretion in which gas and dust left over from the formation of a star are pulled together first by static electricity and then by gravity. When enough gas and dust have accumulated gravity causes the accumulated mass to take a spherical shape.
We can actually see planet formation taking place around star HL Tauri which is about 450 light years from earth. The Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array (ALMA) in Chile revealed planet formation which is still in progress and is taking place within the star's proto-planetary disc. Since star HL Tauri is only 450 light years from earth, what we see was taking place 450 years ago and would still be in progress today.
Star's Planet-Forming Disc Revealed In Unprecedented Detail | Video
Our planet Earth began to form some 4.54 billion years ago and the process took many millions of years. Fossil records show that the first bacterial life emerged about 600 million years after our planet's formation.
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I also don't get when they say that a particular rock is however many years old. All matter is the same age, it just takes different forms. Are we saying that those atoms took the form of a rock however many years ago? How does that makes sense? Rocks don't just form instantly. Presumably, it took a long time for that rock to take on the shape and composition it has today.
You partially answered your own question. Rocks do take long periods of time to form. We can date the age of the earth by the use of radiometric dating of certain kinds of rock. Actually, zircon crystals in Western Australia have been positively dated to 4.374 billion years,
If you actually are interested in learning about this then take the time to listen to the following two videos. They're short.
Planets don't pop into existence fully formed in a day (or in six days - the Genesis creation story) but form over long periods time by a process known as accretion in which gas and dust left over from the formation of a star are pulled together first by static electricity and then by gravity. When enough gas and dust have accumulated gravity causes the accumulated mass to take a spherical shape.
We can actually see planet formation taking place around star HL Tauri which is about 450 light years from earth. The Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array (ALMA) in Chile revealed planet formation which is still in progress and is taking place within the star's proto-planetary disc. Since star HL Tauri is only 450 light years from earth, what we see was taking place 450 years ago and would still be in progress today.
Star's Planet-Forming Disc Revealed In Unprecedented Detail | Video
Our planet Earth began to form some 4.54 billion years ago and the process took many millions of years. Fossil records show that the first bacterial life emerged about 600 million years after our planet's formation.
You partially answered your own question. Rocks do take long periods of time to form. We can date the age of the earth by the use of radiometric dating of certain kinds of rock. Actually, zircon crystals in Western Australia have been positively dated to 4.374 billion years,
If you actually are interested in learning about this then take the time to listen to the following two videos. They're short.
In reference to the bolded, can you clarify: what exactly happened 4.374 billion years ago that "birthed" the zircon crystals? The crystal didn't just pop into existence - the matter that today forms the crystals was created along with all the other matter at the beginning of time - so what does its age actually mean?
In reference to the bolded, can you clarify: what exactly happened 4.374 billion years ago that "birthed" the zircon crystals? The crystal didn't just pop into existence - the matter that today forms the crystals was created along with all the other matter at the beginning of time - so what does its age actually mean?
There are at least two views on how zircon crystals formed. One view is that they formed under great pressure associated with plate tectonics. The other, and more recent view is that zircon crystals formed as a result of asteroid impacts during earth's formation.
By the way, your comment that all matter was created at the beginning of time isn't exactly accurate. While the big bang did originate all the energy that exists in the universe, the formation of atoms didn't begin to take place until the universe had cooled enough to allow for the elementary particles to form stable atoms. That was about 380,000 years after the big bang. But even then, not all elements were formed at the same time. The heavier elements in the universe are created in supernova explosions. The first stars formed when the universe was about 200 million years old. When those stars went supernova then the heavier elements could be formed. So the heavier elements didn't exist until the first stars died in supernova explosions.
There are at least two views on how zircon crystals formed. One view is that they formed under great pressure associated with plate tectonics. The other, and more recent view is that zircon crystals formed as a result of asteroid impacts during earth's formation.
By the way, your comment that all matter was created at the beginning of time isn't exactly true. While the big bang did originate all the energy that exists in the universe, the formation of atoms didn't begin to take place until the universe had cooled enough to allow for the elementary particles to form stable atoms. That was about 380,000 years after the big bang. But even then, not all elements were formed at the same time. The heavier elements in the universe are created in supernova explosions. The first stars formed when the universe was about 200 million years old. When those stars went supernova then the heavier elements could be formed. So the heavier elements didn't exist until the first stars died in supernova explosions.
So if we say a crystal is 4 billion years old, that means that it "formed" 4 billion years ago? As in, 4 billion years ago is when we could first say "that thing is discernible as a crystal"?
Well sure; atoms and elements combined to form new elements and such. But matter itself - whatever constitutes "a thing" - was brought into existence by God at one time.
There was nothing in existence, and then God spoke, and there was something in existence. In that sense, whatever exists first began to exist at the same time.
So if we say a crystal is 4 billion years old, that means that it "formed" 4 billion years ago? As in, 4 billion years ago is when we could first say "that thing is discernible as a crystal"?
The oldest zircon crystals are dated to 4.4 billion years ago, about 150 million years or so less than the age of the earth itself. They were in existence as crystals at that time. They were formed at that time.
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Well sure; atoms and elements combined to form new elements and such. But matter itself - whatever constitutes "a thing" - was brought into existence by God at one time.
There was nothing in existence, and then God spoke, and there was something in existence. In that sense, whatever exists first began to exist at the same time.
In science, matter is defined as any substance that has mass and takes up space. A star for example has mass and takes up space. Not all stars came into being at the same time and so not all matter came into existence at the same time. Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing. Energy can be converted into matter and matter can be converted into energy. Again, all the energy in our universe originated with the big bang, but that does not mean that all matter existed from the beginning. The earth did not exist at the beginning of the universe. The universe is dated to 13.8 billion years. Our solar system, including the earth is only some 4.5 billion years old.
In science, matter is defined as any substance that has mass and takes up space. A star for example has mass and takes up space. Not all stars came into being at the same time and so not all matter came into existence at the same time. Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing. Energy can be converted into matter and matter can be converted into energy. Again, all the energy in our universe originated with the big bang, but that does not mean that all matter existed from the beginning. The earth did not exist at the beginning of the universe. The universe is dated to 13.8 billion years. Our solar system, including the earth is only some 4.5 billion years old.
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Yes, a star came into being - into its current form - at a particular time; but whatever substances make up that star, when broken down into their smallest and simplest forms, came into existence at the same time.
At a certain point in time, there was nothing in existence. And then at a certain point in time (the moment of creation), there was something.
So if we say a crystal is 4 billion years old, that means that it "formed" 4 billion years ago? As in, 4 billion years ago is when we could first say "that thing is discernible as a crystal"?
Well sure; atoms and elements combined to form new elements and such. But matter itself - whatever constitutes "a thing" - was brought into existence by God at one time.
There was nothing in existence, and then God spoke, and there was something in existence. In that sense, whatever exists first began to exist at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
The oldest zircon crystals are dated to 4.4 billion years ago, about 150 million years or so less than the age of the earth itself. They were in existence as crystals at that time. They were formed at that time.
In science, matter is defined as any substance that has mass and takes up space. A star for example has mass and takes up space. Not all stars came into being at the same time and so not all matter came into existence at the same time. Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing. Energy can be converted into matter and matter can be converted into energy. Again, all the energy in our universe originated with the big bang, but that does not mean that all matter existed from the beginning. The earth did not exist at the beginning of the universe. The universe is dated to 13.8 billion years. Our solar system, including the earth is only some 4.5 billion years old.
interesting discussion
The Scriptures are not speaking of the literal creation of the physical universe - the Scriptures are to be understood theologically
That is why we read in Romans this passage
Rom 1:20**For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Gods own people are the ones that are referred to as the things that are made who have the capacity to understand the invisible things
And here
Eph 2:7**That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8**For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9**Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10**For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The phrase ‘the things that are made’ in the Romans passage is this word, the same one in the Ephesians passage
G4161***(Strong)
ποίημα
poiēma
poy'-ay-mah
From G4160; a product, that is, fabric (literally or figuratively): - thing that is made, workmanship.
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Yes, a star came into being - into its current form - at a particular time; but whatever substances make up that star, when broken down into their smallest and simplest forms, came into existence at the same time.
At a certain point in time, there was nothing in existence. And then at a certain point in time (the moment of creation), there was something.
Let me explain it like this. You are saying that ALL MATTER came into existence at the same time, that all matter came into existence at the beginning of the universe. That simply is not the case. While all the energy that exists came into being with the big bang, not all matter did.
An element, such as carbon, gold, or uranium, is made up of atoms which have mass and take up space. Atoms therefore are units of matter. But carbon, gold, and uranium are matter which did not exist at the beginning of the universe. Carbon, gold, and uranium are heavy elements which were and are created when massive stars die in supernova explosions. Therefore not all matter came into existence at the same time.
The Scriptures are not speaking of the literal creation of the physical universe - the Scriptures are to be understood theologically
That is why we read in Romans this passage
Rom 1:20**For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Gods own people are the ones that are referred to as the things that are made who have the capacity to understand the invisible things
And here
Eph 2:7**That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8**For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9**Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10**For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The phrase ‘the things that are made’ in the Romans passage is this word, the same one in the Ephesians passage
G4161***(Strong)
ποίημα
poiēma
poy'-ay-mah
From G4160; a product, that is, fabric (literally or figuratively): - thing that is made, workmanship.
Yes. The scriptures are doing ancient Hebrew theology, not science. The Genesis creation stories, there are two of them, are polemics against the creation stories of the other ancient Near East peoples.
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