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So...what about her mom? Why wasn't she sinless? How could Mary be sinless if she wasn't?
prevenient grace, from God.
We do know that Mary is already 'filled with grace' (κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitōmenē)) as the angel Gabriel addressed her as such;
and we also know that she was born already carrying the cell/egg portion of Jesus's incarnation;
it's pretty obvious that sin and purity (sinlessness) cannot co-exist.
Mary was preserved from original sin because of a unique, miraculous act of God's grace.
Are you saying you don't believe Mary needed as Savior, just as we all do? That she was every bit as perfect as her Son was? Wouldn't that make her His equal?
Are you saying you don't believe Mary needed as Savior, just as we all do? That she was every bit as perfect as her Son was? Wouldn't that make her His equal?
I'm not speaking for Mike, but I'll respond Mary needed a Savior just as much as any of us; it's just that HE came TO her THROUGH her, before HE came to any of us.
Are you saying you don't believe Mary needed as Savior, just as we all do? That she was every bit as perfect as her Son was? Wouldn't that make her His equal?
No. Mary needed a Savior. It was because of an unmerited act of God's grace that she was preserved from original sin and saved for eternal life.
The Catholic belief is that not only was Christ's conception miraculous, but His birth was as well. The Blessed Virgin Mary remained wholly "in tact" after Christ's birth. The analogy of light passing through glass is commonly used.
Yes, a devout Catholic explained that to me once. I had never heard it before and found it quite interesting. The birth is believed by Catholics to have occurred without the usual labor pain, etc.
The Protestant thinking was that having children in those days was the greatest blessing a woman could experience, so why would God not bless Mary with more children after Jesus, thereby inferring that she had normal sexual relations with her husband, Joseph after she gave birth to God's son.
Of course, there's no way any of this is ever going to be resolved, but it's interesting to note the differences in theological thought.
The Orthodox also present reasoning from scripture here - http://theorthodoxfaith.com/article/...s-ever-virgin/
including typology from Ezekiel 44:1-2,
similar to how Dr. Hahn (my previous video link) parallels typology with the 'Ark of the Covenant'.
We do know that Mary is already 'filled with grace' (κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitōmenē)) as the angel Gabriel addressed her as such;
and we also know that she was born already carrying the cell/egg portion of Jesus's incarnation;
it's pretty obvious that sin and purity (sinlessness) cannot co-exist.
Mary's mother was born carrying her egg, right? Was that a sinless egg too?
Okay, so Mary's sinless conception was a miracle and her parents were sinful human beings. (Obviously, the chain of sinless eggs has to end somewhere, and the sooner the better). But if Mary could be miraculously born without sin even though her parents were sinful, I don't see why Jesus couldn't have been miraculously born without sin even though his mother was sinful.
I respect other beliefs and as a Protestant I have a lot in common with Catholics, but it strikes me as odd that the Bible is so full of teaching about Jesus and so strangely silent about Mary. If we are to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, there's a whole book about it. If we are to believe in Mary as a sinless human and co-mediatrix etc., well... Where is that? Is there anything about Jesus which is comparable to Mary in being all about oral tradition and mystic visions rather than Scripture?
The Protestant thinking was that having children in those days was the greatest blessing a woman could experience, so why would God not bless Mary with more children after Jesus, thereby inferring that she had normal sexual relations with her husband, Joseph after she gave birth to God's son.
Mary was prepared to forego the blessing of children her whole life as she anticipated life as a consecrated virgin. That's why she was so surprised to find out from the angel that she would have a child.
Mary's mother was born carrying her egg, right? Was that a sinless egg too?
Okay, so Mary's sinless conception was a miracle and her parents were sinful human beings. (Obviously, the chain of sinless eggs has to end somewhere, and the sooner the better). But if Mary could be miraculously born without sin even though her parents were sinful, I don't see why Jesus couldn't have been miraculously born without sin even though his mother was sinful.
There is no "chain of sinless eggs".
The question here is when "ensoulment" takes place. It's absurd to project the concept of sinlessness or sinfulness onto an unfertilized egg, as it does not have a human soul - or else every woman is carrying around hundreds of thousands of unique persons with eternal souls who, by natural process, will never see the light of day.
It's not an issue of how Jesus *could have been* conceived or born. It's an issue of how Jesus *was in fact* conceived and born.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot
I respect other beliefs and as a Protestant I have a lot in common with Catholics, but it strikes me as odd that the Bible is so full of teaching about Jesus and so strangely silent about Mary. If we are to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, there's a whole book about it. If we are to believe in Mary as a sinless human and co-mediatrix etc., well... Where is that? Is there anything about Jesus which is comparable to Mary in being all about oral tradition and mystic visions rather than Scripture?
It's in the Apostolic Tradition. The Bible was not given to us as a comprehensive theology guide. We have the Church to teach us from the Apostolic Tradition.
That said, we do have Old Testament typologies that point to the Blessed Virgin Mary and her status and role.
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