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Oh for Pete's sake, CCCyou. I can accept that virginity may have been necessary PRIOR to Jesus, but there is no conceivable way for it to have been possible AFTER the birth of Jesus through the birth canal!!!
I've got to agree with you, Mystic. I believe a woman could easily be consecrated to God and still have relations with her husband. In my opinion, there the two things are completely unrelated.
It's the same principle as fasting or giving up any good thing as a sacrifice for our love of God. Nuns, monks, and [most] Priests take vows of celibacy. It's not because sex is bad. On the contrary, it's because sex is good that we can forego the pleasures of it for the purpose of the Kingdom.
A married woman is not defiled by having sex with her husband, as that is a proper thing to do for her state in life. However, if one had taken a vow of celibacy, then to engage in sexual activity would be a defilement as they have been consecrated to God.
We do believe that celibacy is a higher calling than marriage. However, that doesn't follow that there's anything wrong with marriage. Everyone has their own unique calling and gifts. I'm married myself and couldn't imagine taking a vow of celibacy, as it's not my calling. I have a great respect for those who can and do follow that call, as it is no doubt extremely difficult.
Marriage and having children comes along with its own set of sacrifices and difficulties, and it's not for everyone. The Catholic standards for marriage is a high calling as well.
I respectfully disagree, Mike, but I thank you for your explanation. Would you call this teaching (at least as it pertains to Mary), part of the "Sacred Tradition" that, while it is not expressly found in the scriptures, was taught as truth?
Would you call this teaching (at least as it pertains to Mary), part of the "Sacred Tradition" that, while it is not expressly found in the scriptures, was taught as truth?
Yes, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is a dogma that every Catholic is bound to believe.
Yes. I grew up Catholic. I know that Scripture is read in Mass. I've heard Catholic apologists say that the Mass is based on the book of Revelation. I've also heard a Catholic Bishop say that he's "not a Scripture guy." I've heard apologists say that Scripture is one of the 3 legs on the 3 legged stool, magisterium, and Tradition being the other 2. I didn't mean to suggest that they ignore it completely, but the church only views it as 1/3 of the equation.
The church does not believe in sola scriptura.
Interesting by the way - I grew up fundamentalist - LOL
Oh for Pete's sake, CCCyou. I can accept that virginity may have been necessary PRIOR to Jesus, but there is no conceivable way for it to have been possible AFTER the birth of Jesus through the birth canal!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
I've got to agree with you, Mystic. I believe a woman could easily be consecrated to God and still have relations with her husband. In my opinion, there the two things are completely unrelated.
Certainly being married and having relations/children is a noble calling & vocation;
and there are various ways a couple can consecrate themselves/marriage to God, that don't involve persistent chastity,
and as EscAlaMike already mentioned, at least one (Josephite) that does.
Certainly not new or novel, remaining chaste is already well in practice by Essene culture centuries before Mary's time,
perhaps influencing both Mary and Joseph - even likely given that Mary was already 'filled with grace' upon the angels greeting.
This culture reads much more similar to the very early church, even John the Baptist, son of Elizabeth Mary's cousin.
Even read what Paul had to say along these lines:
"... I tell you, brothers, the time is running out. From now on, let those having wives act as not having them" 1 Cor 7:29
"...An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit.
A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband." 1 Cor 7:34
"...So then, the one who marries his virgin does well; the one who does not marry her will do better. " 1 Cor 7:38
Paul even says "Everyone should remain in the state in which he was called." (v.20)
No doubt that Mary certainly had a very different/high calling from the onset.
Certainly being married and having relations/children is a noble calling & vocation;
and there are various ways a couple can consecrate themselves/marriage to God, that don't involve persistent chastity,
and as EscAlaMike already mentioned, at least one (Josephite) that does.
Certainly not new or novel, remaining chaste is already well in practice by Essene culture centuries before Mary's time,
perhaps influencing both Mary and Joseph - even likely given that Mary was already 'filled with grace' upon the angels greeting.
This culture reads much more similar to the very early church, even John the Baptist, son of Elizabeth Mary's cousin.
Even read what Paul had to say along these lines:
"... I tell you, brothers, the time is running out. From now on, let those having wives act as not having them" 1 Cor 7:29
"...An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit.
A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband." 1 Cor 7:34
"...So then, the one who marries his virgin does well; the one who does not marry her will do better. " 1 Cor 7:38
Paul even says "Everyone should remain in the state in which he was called." (v.20)
No doubt that Mary certainly had a very different/high calling from the onset.
::Sigh:: Aversion to sexual relations is neither a healthy nor holy state of mind, CCCyou, no matter what the Essenes or Catholics or any other culture or religion believes.
::Sigh:: Aversion to sexual relations is neither a healthy nor holy state of mind, CCCyou, no matter what the Essenes or Catholics or any other culture or religion believes.
Where did you get "aversion" from? CCCyou didn't say anything about an aversion to sexual relations.
::Sigh:: Aversion to sexual relations is neither a healthy nor holy state of mind, CCCyou, no matter what the Essenes or Catholics or any other culture or religion believes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Where did you get "aversion" from? CCCyou didn't say anything about an aversion to sexual relations.
What do YOU think he meant by remaining chaste, Mike????
What do YOU think he meant by remaining chaste, Mike????
I won't speak for CCCyou, but chastity and celibacy are not necessarily the same thing. Chastity simply means living one's sexuality in accordance with one's state in life. A married couple who are sexually active can and ought to live chastely. Celibacy means abstaining from sex.
Celibate Catholics don't abstain from sex because they have an aversion to sex. They abstain precisely because sex is good and pleasurable, and pleasurable things can be given up as a sacrifice for the good of the Kingdom.
I won't speak for CCCyou, but chastity and celibacy are not necessarily the same thing. Chastity simply means living one's sexuality in accordance with one's state in life. A married couple who are sexually active can and ought to live chastely. Celibacy means abstaining from sex.
Celibate Catholics don't abstain from sex because they have an aversion to sex. They abstain precisely because sex is good and pleasurable, and pleasurable things can be given up as a sacrifice for the good of the Kingdom.
You are aware that this is the year 2022 NOT 1822, right Mike?
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