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Perhaps the dispute those two apostles had is there merely to illustrate that even they had disputes. And perhaps prepare us for our inevitable disagreements.
The perennial issue with burgeoning enlightenment is overcoming our prior unenlightened views. This is particularly problematic when you have an overarching reverence for the source documents of your faith. A reverence for the underlying truth that is in them is appropriate. BUT NOT for the specific interpretations our primitive ancestors made from the inspirations.They were using the wrong CONTEXT for God. Discerning the actual truth behind their primitive interpretations is not an easy task. Using the "mind of Christ: for your context will enable yo6u to see what they probably were trying to tell us, IMO.
The perennial issue with burgeoning enlightenment is overcoming our prior unenlightened views. This is particularly problematic when you have an overarching reverence for the source documents of your faith. A reverence for the underlying truth that is in them is appropriate. BUT NOT for the specific interpretations our primitive ancestors made from the inspirations.They were using the wrong CONTEXT for God. Discerning the actual truth behind their primitive interpretations is not an easy task. Using the "mind of Christ: for your context will enable yo6u to see what they probably were trying to tell us, IMO.
It would be interesting if there was a method to quantify what influences a Christian's faith.
IE:
Private revelation
Scriptural revaluation
Or both.
I have met Christians who know the Jesus I know, that hail from all three.
It would seem implausible for some to believe that anyone can truly know the mind of God without some very personal experience. But I know there are those that really do.
Or could be they just can't, or won't find the words.
It would be interesting if there was a method to quantify what influences a Christian's faith.
IE:
Private revelation
Scriptural revaluation
Or both.
I have met Christians who know the Jesus I know, that hail from all three.
It would seem implausible for some to believe that anyone can truly know the mind of God without some very personal experience. But I know there are those that really do. Or could be they just can't, or won't find the words.
Francis of Assisi: "Pray always. If necessary, use words." I don't mind telling you that a great deal of my prayer-life is wordless images. I normally criticize the toothless Presbyterian-USA Book Of Order, but I appreciate the definition of prayer in there: "Words are not essential to prayer. All that is necessary is to lift the mind and heart to God." Which connects us deeply to some wordless music, composed deliberately to be prayerful, such as the classic "Jesu, Joy Of Man's Desiring."
And yes, we must not freeze the scriptures in time. But just because we are modern, and it was ancient people who wrote that stuff, does not mean our "take" on it all is inherently better. They weren't stupid, they were just ancient. What I like to do it to remember a human focus. We are all human, and so were they, way back when. They were pre-scientific, so some explanations were unavailable to them. But our lived human experience is shared in common. That always helps me to not be arrogant or presumptuous when it comes to re-interpreting scripture for our own day. That reinterpreting MUST be done for the bible to be meaningful to us, through every generation.
I am Catholic. I have not gone to confession for 15 years in fear of being yelled at like I was last time. So I avoid it. Every week in Catholic Church, nearly everyone receives communion. I always thought that one cannot receive communion without being free of sin after going to confession. That said, I never lasted a single week after confession without sinning, be it using curse words, telling a lie, etc. Because of that, I have not received communion in nearly 15 years. Every week, I remain kneeling while everyone else receives communion. I look at them and can’t help but think that most of them are hypocrites. None of them cursed, lied, stole, cheated, masturbated, got drunk, had pre marital sex, watched porn, had impure thoughts, etc since the previous week? Impossible. If they receive with sin, isn’t that a sin also? The worst part is that they look at me kneeling there and are probably thinking that I murdered someone or committed adultry, when in reality, I did nearly nothing wrong. On top of that, the church is usually 25-30% full each week and on holidays, full. Where the hell are those people on regular weeks? Did they think God is taking attendance and need to show up for the important dates? Am I being unrealistic or is the rest of the Catholic world completely full of it?
I never really understood the concept of Sin? That word was not in my religion, and I still struggle with that word today, so I substitute mistake for the word of Sin. My father was Catholic and took me to some of his worship services at church when I was young. I didn't understand the full concept of Catholicism, but I loved the rituals they performed, the Holy water they had, the abundance of candles. It was very similar to the Wicca faith my mother's side was on. I liked the ritual prayers, and his church had special kneeling thingy's during some of the prayers they had where you had to kneel down and pray to God. It was an old established church. I was around 7 or 8 years old when I received my first communion. It was from the Catholic side that you don't take the communion wafer from the Father and eat it, He had to put it in your mouth as a representative of God during this Holy sacrament.
Both my parents were very loving people but also came from fierce tribes of people. My father was primarily Spainard, my mother primarily Irish, but both have ties to Native American heritage. The only reason I am mentioning this is because I don't know if I was supposed to receive communion or not? I was around 7 or 8 years old when I asked to go to my father's church and my father TOLD the priest to give me communion. When my father speaks, you better listen or suffer the consequences ha-ha! He was close to a Senator of our state and worked with the police force and the Father of the church knew what my father was capable of.
I never had any regrets taking that first communion because I loved God. I loved God ever since I could remember and that was a choice I made. It wasn't influenced by my parents because they were kind and allowed me to decide for myself where I wanted to go to church or not because of the Shaman, Wicca, Christian religious backgrounds my parents were from. If you don't mind my saying, I wouldn't worry too much about Communion if I were you. We all make mistakes in life, some people call it Sin, I call it mistakes. I think the important thing to consider is how your relationship with God is. I haven't been to a Catholic church in years, but if I did, I wouldn't have any problems taking communion from the Priest. I am a little more reserved than my father was so if the priest refused to give me communion, it's ok because I would take a wafer and grape juice from my purse and give communion to myself!
In all honesty though lol, I probably wouldn't go back to a Catholic church anymore because I would be concerned that I might disrupt their worship service, especially if they found out I was a witch. In other news, I did go to several different Methodist churches, some had communion some didn't. This was the time during my Year and Day study as an initiate Witch that I wanted to seek out every religion I could find to try to understand how people of all faiths worship their Goddess or God.
There was this one Methodist church I found on social media that had advertised a family meal get together at a local restaurant every Wednesday for anyone interested in attending. I contacted the organizer who also was a priestess of her church. I didn't know they had female priests at some Methodist churches which I found refreshing so I contacted her, let her know I was a witch and if it was ok to attend their Wednesday dinner at the restaurant. she said yes, but I didn't get a very warm reception when I attended lol, it was very off, but she did invite me to her church the following Sunday, so I went, because I was really interested in how they conducted their worship services. Everyone was kind of indifferent when I arrived, but there was this one elderly lady that took a great interest in me. She had me sit with her and she was kind, but because of the lukewarm reception I received at their church and the even colder reception I got during their earlier Wednesday dinner they had. I stayed in my seat when the priestess asked everyone to come up for communion. I don't know if they had communion every Sunday but the day, I went they did. The elderly lady insisted I go up to take communion, but I politely declined because in my religion I can't break bread with people who are not my family. It's very easy to be my family member, all you have to do is smile at me and allow me to give you a hug and you are instantly my sister or brother ha-ha, but these people didn't feel like family to me, so I had to decline. It wouldn't be fair for me to break bread with them out of respect of the differences they had towards me.
I don't know if I helped you with your question, but you certainly helped me look back at my life and maybe heal a little bit for which I really appreciate you for doing so. Take care of yourself and do what you feel is right for you to do. I will support your decision either way and just know I love you! Thanks, Hugs!
I haven't been to a Catholic church in years, but if I did, I wouldn't have any problems taking communion from the Priest.
How do you feel about religious institutions such as the Catholic Church having rules and norms for receiving Communion? Do you feel that the rules and norms of a particular institution ought to be respected and observed by outsiders?
How do you feel about religious institutions such as the Catholic Church having rules and norms for receiving Communion? Do you feel that the rules and norms of a particular institution ought to be respected and observed by outsiders?
That is a very good question EscAlaMike, the old me would do everything within my powers not to disrupt a service before, during or after a worship service, I would try to contact in advance any church whether it is Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist, Wicca, Shamanistic and let them know who I am, if I'm invited to attend, and what rules they have to follow. In regards to Catholic and Methodist themed churches, Some only want members to receive communion, others expect everyone to receive it. Some want you to take the sacraments by hand others expect the "Father" priest to give it to you directly.
At any rate if I attend I will keep a low profile sit in the back usually away from people and try to dress as conservatively as I can. The old me didn't have problems with church rules, but I submit to God not to man so if they had communion and didn't want me to take it, that is fine I wouldn't resist, I would just get the sacraments I brought from home and have my own communion.
After careful review I found these actions could be considered disrupting their service so the new me would Never go to a Catholic church again. In regards to Methodist churches that allow and even encourage outsiders to participate in communion, I'm very grateful for the opportunity, but once again my religion forbids me to submit to men, only to God, and my instructions are very clear. I can only break bread with family and receiving sacraments is considered breaking bread in my religion. It's very easy to be a family member with me, just smile allow me to hug you, and you will instantly be my family member, but if you are cold, distant and disgusted by me, I certainly will honor your right not to be my family member so no can't break bread with you sorry.
Meals, Sacraments are a very sacred thing to me that shouldn't be taken lightly, even in the secular world too. There is so much hostility in my workplace I refuse to eat at their voluntary/mandatory Thanksgiving Christmas meals but my work place uses the political correct term "Holiday Meals". That makes them very angry at me but I won't eat with people that are outside my coven or family, unless you fulfill the expectations of being in my family. These are my expectations for family ship: know I love you dearly, I have your back, I will never talk behind your back, I only want the best for you, if I have a problem with you I will talk to you directly and not complain to a third party. I will do everything in my power to raise you up and not let you down so you can succeed in life. I love you unconditionally but I respect your decision to reject my offer but I hope you don't. It's so easy to be in my inner circle all you have to do is smile and let me give you a hug and +++BAM+++ you are my instant family member, but if my love is too much for you I will respect your decision to leave my family. If you do I can't break bread with you anymore because you are outside my family circle as you wish.
The short answer for you is the "New" me would honor all rules of the church requirements by never going to their church where I might be a disruption to them. I wish it could be a simple as that but my husband has relatives that are super religious and several of them are pastors of their respective church. Out of respect for my husband I will attend church weddings, church funerals, special holiday services when his uncle's request our presence to be part of the family. Since they are part of my family, I have no problem taking communion or eating meals with them too. Hope this answered your question, sorry I'm so complicated, love you!
Last edited by High.priestess.Sarah; 07-31-2023 at 09:35 AM..
Francis of Assisi: "Pray always. If necessary, use words." I don't mind telling you that a great deal of my prayer-life is wordless images. I normally criticize the toothless Presbyterian-USA Book Of Order, but I appreciate the definition of prayer in there: "Words are not essential to prayer. All that is necessary is to lift the mind and heart to God." Which connects us deeply to some wordless music, composed deliberately to be prayerful, such as the classic "Jesu, Joy Of Man's Desiring."
And yes, we must not freeze the scriptures in time. But just because we are modern, and it was ancient people who wrote that stuff, does not mean our "take" on it all is inherently better. They weren't stupid, they were just ancient. What I like to do it to remember a human focus. We are all human, and so were they, way back when. They were pre-scientific, so some explanations were unavailable to them. But our lived human experience is shared in common. That always helps me to not be arrogant or presumptuous when it comes to re-interpreting scripture for our own day. That reinterpreting MUST be done for the bible to be meaningful to us, through every generation.
Very well put. I share you views.
And it's this view that can help us peel back the onion so to speak, and get to the Truth these ancient writers were trying to convey.
A literal view of scripture can be confusing and problematic if not viewed ( as others point out) in light of Christ.
I guess the conundrum is whether the scripture alone is sufficient. The answer is not a simple one in my view.
The defiled will not enter into God’s Kingdom, so we must be diligent with our lives to be real servants of Jesus Christ. We must look to the power in Jesus’ blood to set us free from anything that defiles us.
Revelation 22
[10] And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
[12] And, behold, I [Jesus] come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Revelation 21
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Mark 7
[14] And when he [Jesus] had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
[15] There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
[16] If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
[20] And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
[21] For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
[22] Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
And yes, we must not freeze the scriptures in time. But just because we are modern, and it was ancient people who wrote that stuff, does not mean our "take" on it all is inherently better. They weren't stupid, they were just ancient. What I like to do it to remember a human focus. We are all human, and so were they, way back when. They were pre-scientific, so some explanations were unavailable to them. But our lived human experience is shared in common. That always helps me to not be arrogant or presumptuous when it comes to re-interpreting scripture for our own day. That reinterpreting MUST be done for the bible to be meaningful to us, through every generation.
^^^ Our ancestors were not stupid! But each generation has its own particular mindset. The "ancients" as you call them had very primitive and unsophisticated mindsets so remote from us that reading what they wrote as if it was written by someone today is beyond stupid.
We need only watch a serious and dramatic movie from the silent movie era to see the stark differences in mindsets possible after only a few generations. Those dramatic movies were taken very seriously and responded to very differently than most of us would today. You would think a modern audience was watching a comedy based on their laughter and amusement.
That is why it is essential to discern what God is like from the descriptions of the actions and attitudes of Jesus HIMSELF (the "mind of Christ"). We cannot use the interpretations and explanations of our ancient ancestors. Their beliefs and mindsets regarding God were very primitive and barbaric. If you do not think throwing babies into fires or stoning someone to death is primitive and barbaric there is something seriously wrong with your Spirit, IMO
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