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Teenagers telling us everything? Who are you meaning?
Yeah I google a lot too … however we still need to sort through what we read there as well
The book Michael recommended seems to be well balanced, what I find is a lot of information available will have bias either for or against which is inevitable as it’s part of our human nature
I’m interested in more how religion generally, Christianity and church and the writings themselves connect with each other over time
I see the Holy Scriptures as ancient writings with timing, metaphor, figures of speech embedded in them from beginning to end and I am interested in this connection to how Christianity and the church has developed over time as I was brought up Christian
And I’m also interested in it’s connections to other religious peoples as well
That teenagers always think they know everything there is to know and that they are no longer needed for answers thanks to Google is a joke I picked up somewhere years ago. One that seems to have gone over here like the proverbial lead balloon...
All the best and happy Googling to you as you learn what you are interested in learning!
There is nothing wrong with truth. I would agree with LearnMe that there tends to be one truth
It’s a matter of getting enough true facts together in order to understand God.
That will require Faith. Faith can vary widely. In a way I cannot describe t takes faith to understand the truth of faith. Is it a deity. Is it a curiosity that draws us to learn to better. Is it all of it.
Allow the facts and the truth to keep you comfortable that you can visit a faith knowing your not being taken for a ride, but I sincerely hope you do not abandon faith only because it cannot be proven.
When you are ready. You’ve cautiously worked with a group. They seem ok. Nobody’s looking for your wallet or your taste buds with some Kool aid….take the leap of faith. Quench that hunger that facts alone can’t satisfy.
I really don't believe faith is a good vehicle or manner in which to arrive at the truth. In fact the contrary. We shouldn't need faith to believe universal truths. In fact, we don't. That the earth is round for example. That we all need air to breath and survive. That we all have blood flowing through our veins, and our heart is the organ that keeps it flowing.
We don't need faith to understand, recognize and accept these truths. Universally true for all concerned. Accordingly, these are the only truths or facts I claim to be truth or facts. What is known thanks to good solid evidence, explanation and verification "beyond a reasonable doubt."
All else that can't be deemed a fact or true in the same way cannot and should not be claimed to be true or truths. They are something else entirely, until if/when they CAN be proven true in the same way. Call them beliefs, opinions, feelings, emotions, experiences, whatever you like, but they are not universal truths until they can be universally recognized as such.
Doesn't take "being ready" to understand, recognize and accept what is the truth either. It just is regardless our readiness. Regardless how it makes us feel and regardless whether it fits or suits our alternative world views. You don't need to be ready. You just need to be willing and wanting to learn what the truth is, and to go about that learning in a way that doesn't require being ready or faith or anything along those lines.
And so the history of just about all universal truths once questioned now verified as such have come to be revealed over time. A fascinating history that unfortunately too many people don't know or appreciate the way they should. A significant and important lesson from history not learned by far too many people still to this today.
There is nothing wrong with truth. I would agree with LearnMe that there tends to be one truth
It’s a matter of getting enough true facts together in order to understand God.
That will require Faith. Faith can vary widely. In a way I cannot describe t takes faith to understand the truth of faith. Is it a deity. Is it a curiosity that draws us to learn to better. Is it all of it.
Allow the facts and the truth to keep you comfortable that you can visit a faith knowing your not being taken for a ride, but I sincerely hope you do not abandon faith only because it cannot be proven.
When you are ready. You’ve cautiously worked with a group. They seem ok. Nobody’s looking for your wallet or your taste buds with some Kool aid….take the leap of faith. Quench that hunger that facts alone can’t satisfy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2
Religious people have their own domains, their focus is theological and social not natural
They do have facts but the evidence is not in the natural world it is in the societal world
The problem has always been about how prophets, scribes, priests were setting up systems and organisations for people to administer, not for themselves but for their offspring
And those systems and organisations were subject to corruption and so need reforms along the way, as has been pointed out lately we are all human and make mistakes and over-react, etc
Well, that’s how I see it …. And Not going to argue about it, since at 15 I found I didn’t fit into those ‘systems’
It is good to make absolutely clear what domain or reality we are referring to here. This is exactly why I try to make this same thing clear with the first of my ten truths...
"ONE: There are essentially two realities for all human beings. One reality is as we perceive it to be, our personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the universe, the same for all of us. Our universal truth."
There are many religious people, scientists among them, who understand how faith is not the proper way to go about establishing what is fact and what is not. Also, not all religious people consider it an insult to suggest such a thing. Not all religious people are insulted when their ways of thinking are questioned or alternative ways of thinking are suggested.
On the other hand, I do agree with you that SOME religious people can feel insulted about such things, and about that, I don't think much can be done. I'm not sure anything should be done about people who are so easily insulted in that way. I don't think so. In fact, it's somewhat inevitable no matter how the subject of faith is scrutinized with some religious people.
On this point, I tend to line up better with what the Buddha taught and the Buddhist way of thinking. Which includes total invitation of questions and scrutiny about all things.
I might also point out the full quote goes like this...
"You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you."
This has more to do with being a pacifist (which I can certainly appreciate) rather than how to deal with insult, but either way, it should not be considered an insult when people very honestly, fairly and without ill intent question truth claims. We do it all the time in politics, and it is very important we all do so, or we're not likely to make the sort of progress we're capable of making. Not to mention in many cases establishing the truth of these matters can be very important. Up to and including a matter of life and death.
I doubt anyone need be reminded about the long history of religious disagreement about what is truth and what is not. Vehemently debated to the point of significant violence. No doubt there is a better way to address these sorts of differences. Not to be so easily insulted is one of them. Also to avoid insult, because insult is also not necessary when it comes to a true, sincere, adult discussion regarding these differences.
It's a good post, but ... There are three truths, there is your truth, my truth and the actual truth. Getting to the latter is where differences will always lay.
CORRECTION: There is your opinion about what is true. Their is my opinion about what is true, and there is the actual truth. Your opinion may or may not be correct. Same with mine. But if your opinion or mine is incorrect, they are not truths. They are mistakes!
I am encouraged that at least we agree there is the "actual truth" regardless what anyone believes it to be. Even this fundamental fact is questioned by some people for reasons I won't get into here, but about that point on your part, bravo!
When a baseball pitcher throws a ball outside of a strike zone, the umpire will not punish the batter but will instead grade it as a ball. If the pitcher throws four pitches outside of the strike zone, the pitcher is punished for poor play and the batter is allowed to go on base even though there has been no ball contact.
The fact of MLB is that pitcher who walked those most batters in history was Nolan Ryan. Nolan surrendered 2,795 bases due to throwing balls. Nearly 1,000 more than any other player in history.
Is we use the only fact given, we may be tempted to judge Nolan Ryan as the worst pitcher ever to play in MLB.
This may change when another fact is introduced. Nolan Ryan also struck out 5,714 players. Nearly 1,000 more than any other player in history.
Baseball has lots of facts, yet sportsfans will always disagree on who they think was the best. They judge and evaluate. They forecast and have fantasy leagues based upon rules setup by someone.
You won't have time to gather facts on every decision. On every testament. If you try you may suffer from analysis paralysis.
At some point you will need to make a call. Facts aren't bad, but they are limited. A body of faith....might have one of those annoying parables that's just close enough to spur you forward along a path you want to take.
Big sports fan, so I can appreciate your last pitch here...
I'm only inclined to add that when an umpire makes a call, there is "hell to pay" when it seems they got it wrong. Another good example of how and why it is important to get the facts right. Make the right call, because otherwise the game becomes a free-for-all that no serious sports fans much appreciate.
We might have faith the umpire will always make the right call, but then we have the video playback that now allows us to determine whether he/she did or not, and no one really questions the value of being able to validate the call in that way. To confirm what ACTUALLY happened, regardless the faith we have in the empire.
On this point, I tend to line up better with what the Buddha taught and the Buddhist way of thinking. Which includes total invitation of questions and scrutiny about all things.
I might also point out the full quote goes like this...
"You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you."
This has more to do with being a pacifist (which I can certainly appreciate) rather than how to deal with insult, but either way, it should not be considered an insult when people very honestly, fairly and without ill intent question truth claims. We do it all the time in politics, and it is very important we all do so, or we're not likely to make the sort of progress we're capable of making. Not to mention in many cases establishing the truth of these matters can be very important. Up to and including a matter of life and death.
I doubt anyone need be reminded about the long history of religious disagreement about what is truth and what is not. Vehemently debated to the point of significant violence. No doubt there is a better way to address these sorts of differences. Not to be so easily insulted is one of them. Also to avoid insult, because insult is also not necessary when it comes to a true, sincere, adult discussion regarding these differences.
I agree with you
It isn’t in how we take it but also in how we give it as well
Not all people are honestly asking these questions it seems to me, there is is a lot on both/all sides where the intent is to provoke a response…. Which is not necessarily bad either
There are many religious people, scientists among them, who understand how faith is not the proper way to go about establishing what is fact and what is not. Also, not all religious people consider it an insult to suggest such a thing. Not all religious people are insulted when their ways of thinking are questioned or alternative ways of thinking are suggested.
On the other hand, I do agree with you that SOME religious people can feel insulted about such things, and about that, I don't think much can be done. I'm not sure anything should be done about people who are so easily insulted in that way. I don't think so. In fact, it's somewhat inevitable no matter how the subject of faith is scrutinized with some religious people.
Faith isn't a one-way street. It appears that the thought of being in a faithful marriage is something you dismiss as not properly being factual or true. Even though vows were accepted by both, faithfully believing in each other and walking in that.
Faith is about believing in someone, even when you are not in their immediate presence, and in a faithful marriage it is reciprocal. And having Sabbath rest in that.
I figure your wife would be insulted that you never consider her faithfulness to you as any proper way to go about establishing what is fact and what is not. While she sees you gazing at other women at the beach, as you have spoken about. So, which truth is it that you would seek to turn from and reestablish in that dividing moment, your faithfulness to her or your unfaithfulness to her, as a defining moment of truth.
You forget that I was once religious. I left it because I found religious faith to be a failed epistemology. If I'm saying that religious people are stupid (I'm not) then I'd be saying I also am, or at least was, stupid.
This is not middle school though. I'm just simply stating that religious faith is not a mechanism designed to ascertain what is factual and what is not; it is there to enable acceptance of assertions "by faith" meaning, without substantiation. You don't figure out what is factual, you're TOLD and have to ACCEPT it.
Many religious folk here embrace that and consider it a feature rather than a bug. The problem isn't those folks, by and large. It's the ones who become all unctuous and indignant when someone points it out.
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